This episode originally aired on Aug. 20, 2026.
Beware the beaver! Behind the smiling face of the cartoon beaver in the red baseball cap could be a rodent of ruthless ambition.
Buc-ee's convenience stores, known for their clean restrooms, brisket and fueling stations, are suing a small Ohio corner store in Beavercreek over their mascot.
From trademark legalities to corporate reputation, we're talking about the Ohio battle of the beavers.
Guests:
- David Ferrara, breaking news reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer
- Mark Bartholomew, trademark expert/professor of law, University of Buffalo
- Brian Hipsher, senior lecturer, Fisher College of Business, Ohio State University
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Earlier this year, Buc-ee's, the roadside convenience stores, which have become a destination for travelers, opened their first site in Ohio. Excitement for the smiling beaver in the red baseball cap hits a fever pitch when one opens, with people craving its brisket, snacks, and other beaver-themed merchandise. However, Buc-ee's arrival in the Buckeye State hasn't been without controversy. The corporate giant has been filing trademark lawsuits against two Ohio convenience stores, the latest against Beaver's Mini Mart in the town of Beaver Creek. Joining us to discuss the history of this suit and how it's been playing out in Beavercreek is David Ferrara, breaking news reporter for the Cincinnati Inquirer. Welcome to All Sides David.
David Ferrara: Happy to be here, Amy.
Juravich: So can you describe for me the Beaver's Mini Mart in Beaver Creek? I mean, I know it's a small store in Beavor Creek, but tell our listeners what it looks like.
Ferrara: Well, a small store is one way of putting it for sure. Think of your classic neighborhood corner store, and that is the Beaver's Mini Mart. It has no gas pumps, small little mini convenience store, has what you need inside, little food items, cigarettes, stuff like that, stuck inside of a Beaver Creek neighborhood miles away from the nearest interstate.
Juravich: Okay, now let's contrast that with Buc-ee's. Have you been to the Bucky?
Ferrara: I have, it's somewhat of a tourist attraction. Buc-ee's, originally based out of Texas, has been expanding many places, and they have dozens of gas pumps. They sell, like you said, their own kachkis. They make a whole brand out of themself in terms of the beaver and all of the food that they have, items, drinks. It's like a gas station taken to the next level.
Juravich: And the next level after that. Okay, but so were you, you know, as an independent citizen, were you able to distinguish Beaver's Mini-Mart from Buc-ee's?
Ferrara: Absolutely. I mean Buc-ee's is something bigger than a convenience store. It's not, you know, even when I stopped at a Bucky, it wasn't just to go get gas, it was to go inside and see what Bucky is all about. Whereas the Beaver's Mini-Mart is a neighborhood corner store.
Juravich: Okay, and also, in the town of Beaver Creek, I would assume that an image of a beaver figures pretty prominently around town. So, do you know why that particular mini-mart is being singled out as opposed to another business with a beavers?
Ferrara: Well, so that's the big thing. So with Buc-ee's is their brand. And if you've seen the Bucky Beaver, he has a little hat, you know, red lettering. It's part of the whole Bucky logo, branding, et cetera. The Beaver's Mini-Mart located in the city of Beaver Creek, uh, has a similar logo that incorporates a Beaver. However, the Beaver has no hat. The lettering on the building is red. And obviously the beaver is the mascot, but that's not uncommon for Beaver Creek. The city itself has beavers everywhere. The high school mascot is the beaver's. Countless other businesses and nonprofits across town have the beavor as their logo, so it's just an additional usage of the animal.
Juravich: Okay, and so the lawsuit that Buc-ee's has filed against Beaver's Mini-Mart for this trademark infringement is basically saying, Bucky is saying, that there will cause market confusion. I don't have the exact words in front of me, but like market confusion if, you know, the Beaver Mini-Mart exists with this cartoon beaver, people will, you know, confuse it with Bucky. Do you, like we just discussed that you did not confuse the two, but, like, is that possible?
Ferrara: You know, everyone that I've spoken with, and as this has sort of played out, has indicated that's not really the case. You know again, Buc-ee's is known for its gas station pumps. The Beaver's Mini Mart doesn't even have gas pumps. And you know, again in Beavercreek it's not uncommon to see beavers. When I spoke with one of the Beaver creek administrators, the vice mayor over in Beavercreek, he just told me common sense isn't prevailing here. Nobody would be confused by this Mini Mart and Buc-ee's. It's not even in the same ballpark.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about Buc-ee's lawsuit against Beaver's Mini Mart in Beaver Creek, and we're talking with David Ferreira, breaking news reporter for the Cincinnati Inquirer. Okay, so you interviewed the owner of Beaver Mini Mart. What did he have to say about the lawsuit?
Ferrara: Well, he was shocked when I had spoken with him. He said that he had not heard about the lawsuit until news media started reaching out to him. So I believe it was either one of the local TV stations in Dayton or the Dayton Daily News that had broke the first story, but I was the first one to speak with him, and when I spoke with him and said, hey, this lawsuit has been filed against you. What do you have to react? He told me that he's a small business. He owns multiple of these convenience stores, but he runs these convenience stores to feed his family. He has kids, and he was shock to see that Buc-ee's had filed this lawsuit against the Beaver's Mini-Mart. He claimed that it was as if Bucky is trying to... Claim ownership over all the animals in the world, and that they own all beavers. And in this case, with Beavercreek, he thinks it's excessive.
Juravich: The community support for Beaver's Mini-Mart has grown beyond Beavercreek. There's a local bakery in Worthington that is selling cookies with the Beaver Mini-Mart logo on it. And then also here's a clip from HBO's Last Week Tonight featuring John Oliver. And it also has audio of residents of Beavercreek.
Beavercreek resident: People in Beavercreek are not letting this go.
Beavercreek resident: It's really got Beavercreek in an uproar right now. So many people are upset. What's next? What's Next? Beavercreek was here before they were. How dare they? Their beaver doesn't even look like a beaver. They should be.
Beavercreek resident: By Alvin and the Chipmunks, because that's what it looks like.
Juravich: I really enjoyed the clip of the woman who says that the Buc-ee's Beaver looks like a chipmunk. Anyway, thoughts on that, you know, just those two clips, I mean, obviously those were meant to be funny, but the community is really showing support for this mini-mart in Beavercreek. Tell me about it.
Ferrara: Well, absolutely. I think it quickly became a phenomenon, not only in the Beavercreek community and here in Ohio, but nationwide. There's businesses that have been far and wide changing their logos on social media to incorporate a beaver. Many just using AI to say, hey, take my logo and add a beaver to it. And a lot of people just showing solidarity with the beaver's mini-mark because this isn't the first small business or first company that Buc-Ease has sued. Buckees has been sort of building a reputation pursuing other businesses, as you mentioned, in Ohio, but also across the country that have either similar logos or might relate to beavers in some way.
Juravich: So the Ohio Buc-ee's that opened recently, just a few months ago, is located in Huber Heights. And the Huber Heights mayor made a social media statement saying that there are two sides to every story. The statement was pretty long, but basically it goes on to say that Buckees is trying he talked with the CEO of Buc-ee's, the mayor did, and he's saying that Buc-ee's is trying to avoid a series of beavers mini marts popping up all across Ohio and across the country. So anyway, so my understanding is that the Beaver's Mini-Mart did not file a federal trademark. The owner filed what is called a trade name. So he tried to trademark the name, Beaver Mini-Mart, and that trade name is in conflict with the federal trademark owned by Buc-ee's. Do I have this right?
Ferrara: That sounds right. And it seems like this trade name is a typical course of business for businesses in Ohio. So as the owners put it, he wasn't trying to infringe on Buc-ee's trademark at all. And seems like there's some confusion about the Bucky CEO saying there was a claim of this going nationwide. He was concerned about not only Beaver Marks across Ohio, but Beaver Marks all across the country. And the Beaver Mini Mark owner has said that that's exaggerated and has pushed back on that.
Juravich: Okay, so does the Beaver's Mini Mart owner want to expand?
Ferrara: My understanding is that he already owns some other businesses across Ohio. We haven't been able to get in touch with him since this has sort of blown up. He's released statements now on social media, I imagine he has a lot of different folks reaching out to him. I actually, after this whole thing happened with the CEO initially commenting out because Buc-ee's hadn't responded within the first days of this all breaking, but when the CEO finally spoke up, I sent the owner a text and I personally haven't heard back either, so I think he's started to pick and choose. What he's going to respond to. We haven't heard back about whether he's planning on expanding or not.
Juravich: Oh, so when you talked to him originally, though, I mean, did he plan on fighting the lawsuit? Because in a lot of these lawsuits, the the people just basically like settle to get rid of Buc-ee's.
Ferrara: My understanding, when I first spoke to him, he hadn't even hired an attorney, and I think since now between, uh... The time that the lawsuit was filed, July 28th, and they obviously still have another week until they have to file a response in federal court. He did tell me that he's planning on fighting it, that especially since he feels like this is a shock to him, he doesn't feel like this just, he wants to fight it, and now that the community has started to raise funds for him, he has over $60,000 that was raised in an online fundraiser, people have been patronizing his business, I imagine that he now not only has the will but the resources to push back against Buc-ee's.
Juravich: Yeah, I've seen so much merchandise that says Beaver's Mini-Mart on it. I feel like it's almost like this is all backfiring for Buc-ee's because now more people know about Beaver Mini-Mart. Have you seen that side of the story where like Beaver mini-mart is taking off and in a small Beaver Creek kind of way?
Ferrara: I think so and and you know i mean beyond people on social media talking about it i mean obviously as you mentioned you had that there if you were heights commenting on even governor uh... Mike twine commented on the lawsuit ridiculous saying that but he's dismiss it he said quote it's beavers creek for heaven's sake you know you'd expect to find beaver creek things named beaver so it's definitely got a lot of outrage and has actually led to people sort of talk about boycotting second Buc-ee's or the existing Buckees that is planned in Ohio.
Juravich: Oh, I didn't I don't think I realized there's a second Buc-ee's plan in Ohio. Where's that supposed to go?
Ferrara: That's...
Juravich: Okay, that's okay. My producer can look out for me.
Ferrara: As you say, it's in Mansfield. They haven't announced when they're opening that yet, but that is still in the works.
Juravich: Okay, I had missed that somewhere along the way. Okay, a Buc-ee's in Mansfield, duly noted. In a few minutes, we're going to be talking with a trademark legal expert. We can get all the details from him because I know I read through that whole trade name versus trademark thing and I don't expect you to know that. We'll talk to him about that. But what do you make of the Huber Heitz mayor saying, he began his statement with, there are two sides to every story. I mean, what do you make the mayor taking that angle on this?
Ferrara: Well, you know, in the beginning of this whole thing, obviously, Buc-ee's hadn't commented. But when you're talking about litigation, right, a lot of times, even when I reach out as a reporter to companies, I get the comment that, well, we don't comment on litigation, what have you. And immediately, this exploded with a lot people talking about it, a lots of people pushing back against Bucky. And then the CEO came out with this claim that I think was very starkly different than what everyone else had already heard, that, hey, wait, maybe this Beaver's Mini Mart is not what we thought it was, that it was actually this larger business and something more at play. Everybody's been deceived. And as we've unfolded more of the story and realized that, well, you'll get into the whole trademark versus trade name, it seems like that the mayor had tried to calm things a little bit. But if anything, it seems it could flare people up a little more, at least in the Beaver Creek community.
Juravich: Yeah, you mentioned Ohio politicians having a say about this. So we heard from Governor DeWine saying it's ridiculous. Have we heard, have other people spoken out about it that you've heard from besides, I guess, the mayor or like, you said you talked to some of the is it like a city council in Beaver Creek or yeah.
Ferrara: So the Beaver Creek Vice Mayor pushed back on it. He was shocked to hear, a little bit concerned about what other businesses would, how they would react and how the community would react. And then in the days following this, Beavercreek officially made the Beavor their mascot and had this big unveiling. They had a Beaver mascot there in the city council meeting and made a strong statement saying that they stand by Beaver's the mascot and businesses in Beavercreek that incorporate them.
Juravich: Hmm, interesting. Okay, so the end and the high school, right? Already had a beaver mascot, I believe. Is that true? That's right. Okay. Um, so do you think that there is a chance at this point that this will be end up being settled quietly, given all the publicity it's generating?
Ferrara: Well, you know, I think sometimes in these lawsuits, right, you hear about settlements where the owner changes their name, modifies the logo, what have you. I think that there's been a lot of attention, and I don't know, obviously, what those settlement negotiations would look like, but if I had to imagine, I'd think that there would be possibly Buc-ee's backing off from a PR standpoint, saying maybe this isn't the fight that we want to pick.
Juravich: Do you have, the suit is pending in federal court. There's a hearing that's supposed to happen related to a different suit. That one relates to Mickey the moose. That one has a date. But do you have any updates you're aware of on this case? Is there any court date set or anything happening?
Ferrara: Well, so after a filing is made in federal court, Bucky is sued on July 28th, so the owner and his attorney have until August 28th so a week and a day to respond to that in federal court. And that'll typically be, you know, respond to the allegations at hand. We haven't seen anything yet in terms of any dismissals or settlements or anything like that, but once that gets filed, then I think that's when the docket will start to fill out and you'll see, okay, maybe there's a preliminary hearing set up and some form of agreement might be reached.
Juravich: Okay. And because of, you know, where Cincinnati is and where Beavercreek and the Buc-ee's is, you're covering that. Are you covering the Moose Saga at all? The Mickey's, Mickey's the Moos gas stations?
Ferrara: I have not delved into it too much. I do know that that is another similar suit with Buc-ee's and Mickey's obviously being a larger gas station chain. And that's even something to distinguish. I haven't been to a Mickey's before. But another larger gas stations chain that's using the Moose as part of their brand, selling gear and apparel with the Moos on it, to where Buc-ee's says, well, that's what we do. We're a gas station that sells things with our brand. And then there's some dispute there. Beaver's Mini-Mart doesn't sell t-shirts with the Beaver on it. It's a quality. Well, they might now. Who called for it?
Juravich: Yeah, yeah. Previously. Yes. Previously they hadn't. And even if other businesses are selling t-shirts with their image on it, whether the Beaver Mini Mart owner probably is not doing that because he's involved in a lawsuit, right? But other businesses, they're selling things with his logo on it. That's great. Yeah. All right. We'll talk with the trademark specialist in a couple of minutes about the Moose versus Beaver as well. But for now, we've been speaking with David Ferrara, a breaking news reporter for the Cincinnati Inquirer. Thank you so much for joining us, David.
Ferrara: Thanks, I'm happy to be here.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk with a legal expert on trademarks weighing in on the Buc-ee's lawsuits. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. We're talking about the Texas-based roadside destination, Buc-ee's, which has a penchant for lawsuits, as John Oliver pointed out on the HBO program Last Week Tonight.
Beavercreek resident: Buc-ee's loves to sue other companies, particularly those with animal mascots. They filed over a dozen lawsuits over the years and threatened a bunch more. And, incredibly, to date, Bucky has won nearly all of the cases that it's brought, usually because other companies opt to settle and redesign their logos or just fold completely. And that is probably because most just don't have the resources to fight a company this big.
Juravich: Earlier this year, the Wall Street Journal reported on a federal trademark lawsuit against a Northern Ohio convenience store with a cartoon moose mascot. The article chronicled the rampage Buc-ee's takes against businesses with cartoon mascots. The latest Bucky lawsuit is taking place in Beavercreek, just outside of Dayton. Joining us now is Mark Bartholomew, a trademark expert and law professor at the University of Buffalo Law School. Welcome to All Sides Mark.
Mark Bartholomew: Thanks for having me.
Juravich: So we reached out to you and we learned that you have been following these lawsuits that Buckies has been filing. So as an attorney, as a trademark expert, what are your initial thoughts when you think about all these lawsuits Buckies have been filing?
Bartholomew: So a couple things. In general, it seems like Buc-ee's is being fairly aggressive. These are a lot of lawsuits and also a lot of actions before the U.S. Trademark Office, which certifies trademark registrations. I think they're doing this because they're expanding outside of Texas, and so they're trying to sort of clear the decks to enter other territories like Ohio. So, my other initial reaction is that... Some of these make sense, but some of them are pretty aggressive. And maybe for the average listener, they think, oh, I don't know, a moose and a beaver, are they really that similar? It doesn't seem that confusing to me.
Juravich: Yeah, so what is Buc-ee's demanding from the businesses they sue? I mean, for the most part, with each one of them, they have certain demands in the lawsuits. Can you tell me about those?
Bartholomew: Right. Well, it's it's important to note this is a negotiation, right? So in the lawsuits, the typical move is to claim everything you could possibly get. So you much you must cease and desist using your logo, your trademark. You must destroy all signage, all the materials that have that arguably confusing logo. We want you to pay damages because maybe somehow we can prove that. We lost some business to you because you've confused consumers. They're really asking for everything they potentially can get. Would they actually realize all this? Probably not. They're looking to extract a settlement from these smaller companies.
Juravich: Okay, but the idea of these lawsuits, I mean, some people are calling them nuisance lawsuits. Is there a legal definition of a nuisance lawsuit? Like, is this an example of one?
Bartholomew: I don't think there's a precise definition of a nuisance lawsuit in this case. Another thing that's not quite a term of art, but sort of in my field, is trademark bullying. I think some would describe this as trademark bullying, and what do I mean by that? The idea that you're filing a lawsuit for trademark infringement, that if it went all the way to trial, you probably wouldn't win, but by- By filing a lawsuit like this and being a bigger company, you can convince these smaller businesses to concede, either quit using the logo or redesigning it.
Juravich: So the Buckees that came to Ohio is in the town of Huber Heights, and the Huber Heights mayor made a statement on social media basically saying there are two sides to every story and that the Hüber Heights mayor talked with the CEO of Buckeys about this. And so basically, I'm going to summarize, Buckey's says they're trying to avoid a series of Beaver's mini-marts from popping up all over the country, all over Ohio. And, so my understanding is, though, that Beaver mini-mart did not file an actual federal trademark. The owner filed what is called a trade name. The trade name is Beaver's Mini-Mart. And the trade name is in conflict with the federal trademark owned by Buc-ee's. Can you, what's the distinction here? What's a trade named versus a trademark?
Bartholomew: I mean, I think what they're getting at, perhaps, I'm not sure, but I think where they might be getting at here is that saying, well, we just registered this as the name of our business, but we're not claiming that we're going to use this logo with a beaver on it all over the place. So we're now even claiming that we get exclusive rights to beavers for a gas station and mini-marts. We're just saying it's a placeholder. This is what we wanna call our business. Sort of a. A more relaxed intellectual property claim here. I think what's interesting here is that I also saw a statement from the CEO of Buc-ee's saying, well, we tried to contact these folks, but they didn't respond. And so that's why we've gone all this way to file the lawsuit. We wanted to talk, we wanted to make sure that they can still keep doing what they're doing. We don't mind this small minimart, but like you said, we don't want all of a sudden to compete with 25 or 30 beaver minimarts because that would be a different kind of competitive threat. That's one side of the story. I don't know what the other side is, but that's one thing that Bucky seems to be claiming.
Juravich: Well, the owner of Beaver's Mini Mart has talked at the very beginning, but hasn't talked to many reporters since then. But basically in the very first interview he did, he said he was surprised by the lawsuit. I don't think everyone, but the Buc-ee's CEO statement hadn't come out then to say they tried to contact him. So I'm not really sure. I mean, he says he was surprised. So do you like, who knows what, who know what it meant by this Bucky saying they tried contact him, right?
Bartholomew: Right, right. And now at this point now it's going to be hiring lawyers and getting all this out on the table after after probably a lot of time and expense.
Juravich: Right. And a lawyer would probably tell all sides to be careful about what they say publicly, so.
Bartholomew: Yeah, absolutely.
Juravich: All right, so many businesses use cartoon mascots. So when does it actually cross the line of trademark infringement? Because there's cartoon mascouts everywhere.
Bartholomew: Right, so the test in trademark law is called the likely of confusion test, and that test just asks, would the average consumer be confused by what's going on here? Would they mistake the defendant's logo for the plaintiff's? In this case, Buc-ee's, the Texas company. And they don't even have to be completely confused, but they have to think somehow that the defendant is associated or got approval from the plaintiff, the original Buc-ee's. That's the test. So is there a likelihood of confusion? But of course, that's pretty open-ended. How do you determine when the average person is going to be confused? And so what the courts do is they rely on a battery of factors. I think the average might say, oh, well, a moose and a beaver, those are different. Case closed, not confusing. But instead, there's a lot of things that go into it. We look at not only how similar are these things in appearance, but how similar are they potentially in sound, also other things. Are they in the same kind of product category? It's one thing to have, say, Delta faucets and Delta airlines. We can have those two coexist, I think, in the consumer's head without a lot a potential for confusion. But the argument is that when you're in the same kind of business, many marts, gas stations, then there's more of a potential for confusion. Another factor that courts look at is, what kind of customer sophistication are we looking at here? Are the consumers likely to put a lot of thought into this, so for really expensive things, we say, oh, well, that's probably something where a consumer's gonna be careful. They'll almost be less likely to be confused because they'll. They'll be very mindful of what they're doing. Cheaper things like low cost purchases or everyday purchases. We tend to think the consumer's in a hurry. They probably won't put a lot of attention to this. And so they'll be more likely to confuse. They won't pay attention to the differences, say between a moose and a beaver.
Juravich: Well, long before Buc-ee's entered national consciousness and anyone had ever heard of a Bucky, there were TV shows. The Wacky Races had the Sawtooth, Sawtoothe Beaver. There was The Angry Beavers, which is an animated sitcom on Nickelodeon. Both of those cartoons prominently featured beavers. So couldn't the owners of those programs sue Bucky?
Bartholomew: Potentially, so one test here is you don't get a trademark unless you're using the name or the symbol as a designation of source for your business. So the key here is that someone sees something and they think, oh, that thing, that symbol or that name is attached to this business. As a way to sell me something. So Apple for computers. Oh, I see that and I think they're trying to sell my phones or computers. And so it might be a little different if something is in a movie or a TV show because the consumer might not see that as a representation of source for the business, might they just see it as a character in the TV show. So that would be something where even though the TV was first, we'd have to have an analysis of whether this was. A designation of a source for products coming from a particular business. So that'd be one thing where we'd have to sort things out. So it's not always enough to be first. You also have to have a trademark that you're the first to use.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the legalities of trademark issues involving the Buc-ee's lawsuit against Beaver's Mini Mart in Beaver Creek with Mark Bartholomew, a trademark expert and law professor at the University of Buffalo Law School. Is Bucky allowed to own a cartoon beaver?
Bartholomew: They are, absolutely. We can probably think of other animals or cartoons that serve as trademarks. So they are. I just wanna caution that we should be careful with the word own. So yes, they can absolutely have a trademark in a cartoon animal symbol. There's lots of things out there that are like this that serve us trademars for businesses. But... Their ownership is limited to preventing confusing uses. So if nobody's confused by what the latecomer is doing with another cartoon or another animal, then they're right, stop there. They're not allowed to stop that. And related to that, we're allowed to use it in a way that's called fair use under the law. So if John Oliver wants to make fun of Buc-ee's or have his own rival supposedly convince him. A similar cartoon animal, and we see it as a First Amendment use or a use that really is unlikely to confuse, then those kinds of things are allowed and Buc-ee's can't stop them. It's just the commercial uses that are confusingly similar to its own cartoon animal.
Juravich: Okay, so does without using the word own does is Disney the only one that can have a cartoon mouse?
Bartholomew: I, well, again, it depends if someone else is using something that's confusing. So for example, I might have a cartoon mouse, but I'm using it to sell. Oh, I don't know. I'm trying to think of a business that's not at all related to Disney.
Juravich: Tupperware. I don't know. Yeah, great. Tupperwares, yeah.
Bartholomew: I might be okay, particularly if my mouse was different. Maybe it wasn't as cute as Mickey. Maybe it was more rodent looking or something like that or had really big googly eyes. So the test is really, is it different enough in product category, in appearance, that consumers wouldn't be confused.
Juravich: Okay, well, so let's talk about a different Mickey. There's Mickey the Moose, which is in Northern Ohio, and these are convenience stores with gas stations. And Buc-ee's is suing them for the same thing, the brand confusion. They have a cartoon moose mascot. It's not a beaver, it's a moose. But now Mickey's, the convenience store, well, actually the company that owns them, which is called Kohl's IP Holding, has filed a counter suit. What do you make of that, that they're suing back?
Bartholomew: Well, I think that makes sense. If I'm Mickey's, I want to respond my own claims because that's gonna help me have leverage in any kind of settlement negotiation here. So you fight back whatever at your disposal as far as legal claims go. And I think they also can make an argument here that we're not confusingly similar. We're a moose, we're or not a beaver. That's their arguments. On Buc-ee's side, what they've said is, well, it's not just that they're using another animal. Our rights in the Buc-ee's beaver don't go that far, but they're in the same kind of category, mini marts, as we are, arguably. Their moose is a cartoon image. It's not realistic. It has wide eyes. It has a rounded background behind it. It has red coloring. They're trying to claim that when you add all these things together, it's not so ludicrous to say someone might be confused between the Buc-ee's Beaver and the Mickey's Moose.
Juravich: I do know what the difference between a moose and a beaver though. Would I think I was at a Buc-ee's if I was a Mickey's? Is that what they're worried about?
Bartholomew: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the average reaction. And frankly, that's my reaction, too. It seems like a stretch. On the other hand, if I was arguing in Buc-ee's favor here, what I would say is trademark law doesn't require an exact side-by-side comparison. I think if we'd say, well, if anybody just had these things next to each other, they'd say That's a moose, that's a beaver. You know the word Buc-ee's and Mickey's might be close to these these cartoon animal symbols and that would help distinguish them but trademark law says well people are in a hurry maybe they get a hazy impression of a symbol in one place and then a week later they go to the other place to get gas and they have that hazy Impression so it's not as precise as a side-by-side comparison necessarily. And just the other thing I'd say in Buc-ee's behavior, even though I'm kind of like you, I think that this seems like a bit of a stretch is that Bucky has sued, you said in your intro they had a lot of these lawsuits and they won a prior case, I think it was a jury trial actually, involving a similar looking arguably alligator. And I'm not a zoologist, but an alligator is pretty different from a beaver. It's not even a woodland creature. Exactly. It doesn't live in a forest, as far as I know. So in Buc-ee's, if they're making the strongest case here, they'd say, look, our rights could potentially go beyond just the beaver, could go to other animals that people might perceive in a similar way.
Juravich: All right, well, we have about a minute left. I'm not gonna make you predict the future, but what do you think is gonna happen here with Beaver's Mini-Mart and their Beaver? Because they've gotten a lot of public support. Even Ohio Governor Mike DeWine has called the lawsuit ridiculous. So, what do think is going to happen with this lawsuit? Do you think we'll end up with a jury trial?
Bartholomew: I don't, I think it will settle. And I think all the bad PR for Buc-ee's is going to help. It's not great when the governor of the state you're trying to enter doesn't like what you're doing. But typically what happens in these things is the smaller defendant will settle, it costs up to a million dollars even before you get to trial to defend one of these cases. So what I think will happen is there'll be some agreement to change the logo. Maybe adopt some disclaimers or some promises not to expand to other territories when it comes to Mickey's and the parties will agree to coexist, but not until that kind of concession from the smaller less well-financed defendant happens.
Juravich: We've been speaking with Mark Betholomew, a trademark expert and law professor at the University of Buffalo Law School. Thank you for your time today, Mark. Thank you. Coming up, what these trademark lawsuits mean for the business of Buc-ee's from a marketing standpoint. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Whether it's the brisket sandwiches, the immaculate restrooms, or beaver-themed merchandise, Buc-ee's is more than a roadside convenience store. It's become a cultural phenomenon and a destination drawing visitors far and wide and lots of media attention. However, the spat of lawsuits Bucky has been filing against smaller businesses could be harming its reputation. And as John Oliver points out in this soundbite from his HBO show, Last Week Tonight, Buc-ee's may have taken on more than it can chew.
Beavercreek resident: As many Beaver Creek residents have pointed out, if Buc-ee's won't let the minimart use a Beaver in its logo, that could be a slippery slope. Because they've understandably got a bunch of Beaver stuff there, from Beaver creek pizza dive to the bowling alley Beaver View Bowl, the town's annual popcorn festival, has a Beava mascot, as does Beavercreek High School, whose mascot is literally named Bucky the Beaver.
Juravich: So here to tell us what this turn of events could do to Buc-ee's brand in general is Brian Hipscher, a senior lecturer at Ohio State University's Fisher College of Business. Welcome back to All Sides, Brian.
Brian Hipsher: Thanks, Amy.
Juravich: Have you been to a Buc-ee's?
Hipsher: I have been to a Bucky.
Juravich: Okay, so from a marketing and branding standpoint, I mean, what do you think of the growth and the national attention and the draw of the Buckees? It's like a business powerhouse. Is it a cultural phenomenon? What do you
Hipsher: Absolutely. I mean, the customers love Buc-ee's. People are really curious about Bucky coming to their area. The opportunity to try some different food maybe they've not had when you're out on a road trip, just getting the chance to stop in and see a gigantic gas station and a much larger convenience store than you could ever imagine. It's really something people look forward to.
Juravich: And so they've built this brand. I mean, and they've build it by making it a destination, not just a gas station, right?
Hipsher: Absolutely, yeah, they built the brand over decades, you know, and they started in Texas and slowly, you now, has started to roll this out now nationally, to a lot of fanfare. People really look forward to those grand openings.
Juravich: So will this targeted legal action that's been happening against smaller stores, mom and pop shops, will it make consumers view of Buc-ee's, will it change it? Are they gonna now be more of a corporate bully rather than a beloved roadside attraction?
Hipsher: Well, I think that's the concern, you know, that as you build a brand, certainly you do want to defend your intellectual property. You want to make sure that you continue to be known, you know, for the specific look and feel that you've got going on. And that creates concerns and challenges as you enter new markets where maybe there are people who are doing something similar to you, but maybe don't have the same legal framework or setting to be. Protected.
Juravich: Well, so what is it going to do with the idea of the average consumer? Because basically, Buc-ee's is making the news for the lawsuits, which is not what they want.
Hipsher: In all the wrong ways. Yeah, I mean, some people might say, wow, Buc-ee's is in the news, but not at all for what they're really wanting to be in the news for. And certainly that is causing some consumers to think about that, think twice about going to Buc-ee's. I think even just recently, there was a billboard that was kind of vandalized that them. It's not the look that you want as Buc-ee's. From the branding perspective, you want people to think, hey, fun, quirky, family, road trip kind of place that we're gonna stop and enjoy a treat or something like that, not a corporate bullet.
Juravich: In the past, business publications have singled out Buc-ee's as a master class in branding and marketing. So how bad are they harming their reputation here? I mean, are they messing up this master class?
Hipsher: You know, yes, maybe, the truth will be told, you'll know maybe a couple of years from now what the final outcome is from all of this. You know, it's not unusual for a company to be aggressive defending its brand. And sometimes there are challenges inside of a company where the legal department has one set of instructions and the marketing department has another set of instructions and are they talking with one another enough to understand like, hey, we should. We should be enforcing in this place and maybe not enforcing it in that place and thinking about those things.
Juravich: That's interesting, to be a fly on the wall in the meeting between legal and marketing.
Hipsher: I've got to imagine that there's been some interesting conversations recently.
Juravich: Because, yeah, because marketing is saying, like, we're trying to just promote happiness here and it's turned, but the legal team is saying we have to protect this.
Hipsher: Yeah, you know, and I would say in most companies, the marketing team is gonna be thinking about how do we grow this brand? How do we bring more consumers? How do get these grand openings happening and continue the excitement? And unless the marketing teams runs across another company that's imitating or doing something that might be like, hey, wow, this is a concern, they're probably too busy to be looking and think of that. Meanwhile, the legal team, hey, they're searching databases and records of companies. Filing new openings and this kind of a thing to see like hey wow this this company maybe just filed some paperwork to say that they're changing their name to beavers market or something like this and it's like oh okay wait a second who are these guys now they're on the radar and the legal team is going to be maybe chasing after them
Juravich: Do you have any examples of instances in marketing where a company has been damaged, the reputation has been damage after they went after a small business? Is there an example of that in a case study?
Hipsher: You know, there are examples of companies where it's maybe more of a short-term damage, but maybe not a major infliction that causes long-term problems. And I think that's where maybe Buckies is making that calculation, you know, it's possible.
Juravich: Everyone has short memories.
Hipsher: Yeah, it's like, hey, you know, this is going to pass, you know, that there'll be some interest in some conversation. But are people still going to go in and get their beaver nuggets? They are. They just had a grand opening and there, you know, a lot of people there.
Juravich: So, they'll make sure there are not beaver mini-marts all around Ohio, legally, and everyone will eventually forget about that and Buc-ee's will still remain.
Hipsher: I would say also maybe what's a little bit different now is there's definitely this kind of, we'll call it the cancel culture, that if it does, there's a tipping point maybe where a brand does something to the extent that they realize, oh my goodness, this is now going too far and we need to get back and control this thing.
Juravich: It makes me think of small little local stores telling us to shop local rather than shop on Amazon.
Juravich: But Amazon seems to have done just fine, you know, even though people may dislike Amazon, they still probably use it. Is that is that kind of an example?
Hipsher: I think that's a good example. Customers are very complicated in the way they think. They might say one thing, like everyone says, well, I want to eat healthier. But when they go into the restaurant, they order the French fries. And so it's what they say versus what they do can be two different things. For something like Buc-ee's, it is an out of the way type of a situation where it's an occasion. And it's not a frequency kind of a thing, so. Um, maybe in that case, people might opt to say, well, yeah, I don't, I don't have to go there, you know, I can go someplace.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about what the federal trademark lawsuits could do to Buc-ee's reputation from a marketing perspective. And we're talking with Brian Hipscher, a senior lecturer at the OSU Fisher College of Business. How will viral internet pushback, you know, where other businesses adopt beaver logos in solidarity, right? Like a lot of businesses change their logo to a beaver temporarily. Will that weaken Buc-ee's mascot if we start seeing beavers everywhere?
Hipsher: You know, I think it probably just draws more attention to to Buc-ee's in general and and what's funny about people is even just the awareness of Buc-ee's is going up, you know with all this additional attention. So in a way Strangely enough. It probably draws more awareness to Buc-ee's and hey, who's Buc-ee's what's that? You know as well as to the smaller guy who probably like Beaver Mart. Nobody knew who Beaver mart was You know a few weeks ago and now it's more people know what that's all about And the thing is, it's not just beavers. I think that's the thing that's most interesting is.
Juravich: That the you know Buc-ee's there. They're trying to act like they own all cartoon mascots. Yeah. Yeah, you know They went after a moose. Yes, and a teddy bear. I think for sure some sort of an out
Hipsher: For sure. And outside of convenience stores, too. It's just even general merchandise, you know.
Juravich: John Oliver, we mentioned before the host of HBO's Last Week Tonight, is really taking on this issue and he has this to say about Buc-ee's suing smaller businesses.
Beavercreek resident: It is unbelievable how badly Buc-ee's is f***ing this up. Instead of just dropping their lawsuits in the wake of RP, something that would have generated them a tremendous amount of goodwill, they've tripled down by going after yet another small business. And in the process, they've managed to mobilize the most passionate and dedicated community of Beaver fans on planet Earth.
Juravich: Yeah, so, I mean, what do you think? I mean obviously, you know, he's funny and entertaining and he's really making this an interesting issue, but do you these legal battles are gonna accidentally draw more regional competitors like for Buc-ee's, yeah.
Hipsher: I mean, sometimes that happens. They call that the Streisand effect. We're basically drawing more attention to something just by making an issue of it yourself.
Juravich: With the strike, what does that mean?
Hipsher: Yeah, so I think it was back in the early 2000s where Barbara Streisand's mansion was on a photograph, but it had something to do with an environmental cause. And she made a big deal out of it and actually sued the people who published her house picture, her mansion. For making her house an example. Of this. And by doing so, it actually drew more attention to the cause. And now we call that the Streisand effect, when you actually draw more attention to something than you meant to.
Juravich: Mm, like she didn't mean for it to be, okay. Exactly.
Hipsher: Exactly and it kind of made her look bad too like she thought I want this to go away so that I don't look bad And by doing that it made her looked bad
Juravich: Okay, so so Buc-ee's could be accidentally doing that here. Yeah, if courts rule against Bucky What would advice as a you know as someone who teaches marketing? What advice would you give them to repair their reputation?
Hipsher: You know, I think sticking with their core brand and just continue to do the good things that they do, you know, on a day-to-day basis. I do think that the lawyers at Buc-ee's are pretty smart. So the likelihood that they actually lose in court probably isn't so great because it isn't always just sue and litigate and end that way. There's usually some negotiation that happens in the middle and I think that's really what they're trying to do with.
Juravich: They want to settle everything out of court.
Hipsher: They want to settle things, and yes, it is kind of pushing things around. They're kind of bullying a little bit, especially with small guys that you can, you know, it's expensive to hire lawyers to protect yourself, and yeah, they have power because of that.
Juravich: And from a pure marketing standpoint, I can understand the issue Buc-ee's has with other beaver mascots that maybe even look like there's a little bit. But to go after a bear, a teddy bear, a moose, I mean, from a marketing perspective, how dumb does Bucky think the average consumer is? Because they write the sentence as something like, it'll cause confusion for consumers. They won't know where they are. But I'm like, no, I know where I am. I'm not confusing a moos for the bea, right?
Hipsher: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. There is some likelihood of confusion or potential confusion, if you can imagine. I try to imagine like, well, where are they coming from on something like this? Having a mascot, a cartoon mascot, let's say everyone figures out, wow, maybe that's part of Buc-ee's magic formula. We need to have cartoon mascots. And everyone starts to do this. And they're like, wow. Maybe Buc-ee's has really studied this and figured out that having a mascot looking off to the right with a big smiling face and big eyes, that that's their magic. And all we have to do is do that and everyone's gonna come to our location. We can sell merch and all this kind of a thing. Well. The more of that that happens, it does start to dilute the, we'll call it the specialness of the brand. And people might start to see, well, Buc-ee's isn't so special anymore. There's a lot of other players out there that really have things that are similar. And it is kind of those gray lines, they call that the zone of ownership, like where at the very core, clearly Bucky owns this thing. That is Bucky, you know, the beaver. And you look at the logo and you say, yep, that's exactly it. So they own that for sure. And then you go out one little circle from there and it's like, well, okay, is it a rodent, you know the cartoon? Now is that okay to do or not? And then, you go, oh, well maybe any animal. Is that, okay wait, now it's not even animal. Maybe it's a smiling object. At what point has it gone too far? And that is something that if it did get to where it's litigated. Consumers would be part of the jury and that's the question that they would be asked is is this really causing confusion and Buc-ee's would have to prove that.
Juravich: So Buc-ee's would have to prove that people were confusing a moose and a beaver and not knowing where they are. Correct. What gas station could I possibly be at?
Hipsher: Is it somehow related to Buc-ee's? Maybe it's somehow, you know, their sister brand or something like this.
Juravich: Well, just to end on, I mean, what would you tell your students who are studying marketing, if they want to pursue a future in marketing, how would you tell them to approach, you know, making a mascot and or marketing something like this and what you know whether or not they should sue over, like, it's just, you know, like yeah, what do you teach them here?
Hipsher: Yeah, what's the learning? Yeah the learning I I think actually this will be a great case study And something that we will look back at and and we'll talk this is something that We would talk about in class now I don't know that there's a correct answer as of yet because as a as a business person certainly you want to protect your brand But you also do need to keep in mind consumer perception And so really understanding what kind of damage did Buc-ee's do to their brand is something we don't really know quite yet, although we're in the crucible of that right now. We're kind of seeing like, oh, it feels like there's a lot of energy, but six months from now, it might be gone. And it's like, yeah, stay your course, protect your intellectual property. It'll go away, or uh-oh, we learned something else completely different that you gotta be really careful here and you might've really done something.
Juravich: We've been speaking about what recent lawsuits could do to Buc-ee's reputation. And we've been talking with Brian Hepsher, senior lecturer at the Ohio State Fisher College of Business. Thank you for being here today, Brian. Oh, thanks Amy. And you're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich.