This episode originally aired on April 22, 2026.
In 2025, Columbus was ranked as the fifth best beer city in the country.
One of the contributors to that was BrewDog, which had opened breweries around Columbus and its surrounding neighborhoods.
Just this year, however, it has changed leadership, and the way it operates in Columbus has completely shifted.
What is the state of local breweries in Ohio, and what about beer on the national level?
Are we drinking more beer than in the past or is the craft beer trend finally tuning down?
Guests:
- Bob Vitale, dining reporter, Columbus Dispatch
- Joshua Bernstein, author, journalist and consultant specializing in beer
- Jen Burton, co-founder, Seventh Son Brewing
- Collin Castore, co-founder, Seventh Son Brewing
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Earlier this year, BrewDog abruptly shut down two local taprooms, one in the Short North and one in Franklinton.
A few weeks later, it was announced that Tilray Brands, known mainly for medical and medicinal and recreational cannabis, acquired BrewDog and was working on a deal to acquire all its remaining Columbus and central Ohio brewery locations, including its US headquarters in Canal Winchester.
What does this acquisition mean for the Columbus brewing scene? And how are local breweries reacting to this change? Plus, what other trends and changes have local brewerys had to adapt to? Joining us now is Bob Vitale, dining reporter for The Columbus Dispatch. Welcome to the show, Bob.
Bob Vitale: Thank you Amy, it's great to be here.
Juravich: So tell me a little bit about the history of BrewDog in Columbus. I know in Canal Winchester became its US home in 2015. What did BrewDog mean for central Ohio here?
Vitale: You know, I think it was kind of, it put central Ohio on the map in craft brewing. It's not a very old industry. It's an old hobby. Um, people would brew beer for themselves for a long time. Um, it wasn't until about the 2010s or the early 2000s that, um, craft brewing took off, people turn their hobbies into businesses. Um, I, it's a dream for a lot of craft brewers. So we had so many open. Over the last decade or so.
Juravich: So did the abrupt closing of the BrewDog locations in the Short North and Franklinton surprise you?
Vitale: Um, you know, their problems had been kind of brewing, for lack of a better word, for a while, um, they were struggling. They're based in Scotland and, um their Columbus was their U S home. Um, they had been closing tap rooms across the UK for a few years. Uh, I think they were hanging on here. Until the closings in Franklinton and the Short North. Tilray, when they bought BrewDog, kept the three remaining places open. I think they're in New Albany, Canal Winchester, and at John Glenn Airport.
Juravich: Yes. So, yes. So my understanding is right now that company, what is it called? Tilray, right? Yes. So they're working to acquire all of the U.S. Operations. They're working on, you know, things don't just happen overnight, but they're trying to figure out what they're going to do with everything. You can now Winchester.
Vitale: Yes, and they have, Tilray owns probably more than a dozen, maybe about 20 regional brewers across the country. They own a brewery in Denver, they own one in Seattle, Texas. So I think their plan is to keep regional brews. BrewDog isn't one that was born here, that expanded. It came here. And set its base in Columbus. So I think, I don't know if their plan is to kind of try to expand it beyond a Midwestern brewery. They also have a place in Cleveland.
Juravich: Do you know after Tilray acquired BrewDog, has there been any changes to those three remaining locations, Canal Winchester, New Albany, or the airport?
Vitale: Not that I'm aware of okay, but they Tilray recently said they expect BrewDog to be profitable in by 2027 and and they say you know their plan is to expand again
Juravich: I would hope so. Is that why they bought it? Right. Right. Well, do you think, just from your perspective as a food writer and someone who writes about the dining scene in Columbus, did the acquisition and the sudden closure of the BrewDog in the Short North in Franklinton, did it scare any of other of Columbus's local breweries?
Vitale: You know, I don't know if, I think they kind of operate in a different plane, maybe, as local small businesses, as opposed to this big kind of global company. It's not a easy business to be in. I imagine it's quite a fun business for people who've taken their hobby to the business side, but it's not an easy business. There's, I'm. I just went back this morning over our monthly openings and closings for the last year. I'm surprised. I only had one other than BrewDog. There was one local place that closed in the last and maybe five that opened.
Juravich: Do you know the name of the one? Do you remember the name?
Vitale: The one that closed was goodness.
Juravich: Checks his notes. It's okay.
Vitale: I'm sorry, I can't remember offhand what it was.
Juravich: It'll, it'll come
Vitale: Yeah. But you know, some regional ones came in. Voodoo Brewing opened in the Short North. Some more small local places open. There's a place called Honest Friend Brewing on the south side that opened recently. That's a nice name. Yeah. So... Um...
Juravich: We got Voodoo, we got Honest.
Vitale: Both ends of the spectrum there.
Juravich: Well, I was just going to ask you if you've noticed a major shift in brewery operations in Columbus over the last few years, um, just, or has it stayed relatively the same? I mean, if you're talking about five opening, I would have to think that the scene, the crap, the scene is okay.
Vitale: Yeah, yeah it is. I think the whole restaurant scene is kind of struggling right now and there's a lot of worry in the industry even though openings still kind of outpace closings in our counts. But I've noticed breweries or brew pubs and taprooms are kind of doing a lot of programming. They try to be hangouts instead of just going for a beer. They they do a lot of programming with trivia nights and I think Honest Friend even does classes and and things like that at their site. So they want people to come and stay a while.
Juravich: The change in owners of BrewDog is probably one of the biggest headlines to come out of the brewery scene in Columbus in a long time because it made national news, right?
Vitale: It did. International. International. Yes, because they're from Scotland. International news. So do you think that that will impact Columbus? I mean, if BrewDog is able to like hang on and keep Canal Winchester going and truly does believe it'll be profitable, will it be okay?
Vitale: Um, sure. I think there's bigger trends. I think beyond brew dog, there's people are just drinking less, um, in the last few years. And someone told me recently, they think it's because of a lot of, uh, use of GLP ones and, and things like that are kind of cutting alcohol consumption. So I think that's why breweries were switching into THC beverages and doing a lot of canned cocktails. They're kind of trying to diversify. As beer consumption and liquor consumption in general goes down.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about local breweries with Bob Vitale, dining reporter for the Columbus Dispatch. So let's talk more about those trends. So you mentioned first, let's about the THC drinks. So breweries were kind of leaning into this idea that people were drinking less alcohol, but they were still interested in drinking THC drink, right?
Vitale: Yes. So they were making them. Yeah. And now they're not allowed. Right. So tell me more. Well.
Vitale: Seventh Son, who you'll be having their founder on later, I believe, was doing a lot of that and was left with a big inventory. I remember talking to Colin, the founder, back in the summer when the ban was first proposed. And he had just sent a truck out that morning and brought it back in when the when the band was announced. So It's that was how they were banking on kind of keeping business going as liquor consumption decreased.
Juravich: So just to catch our listeners up, the Ohio legislature passed a law that bans hemp products and THC drinks are made with hemp. And so this law also included banning THC infused beverages. So therefore, since I believe it was mid-March, they're not allowed to be sold anymore in Ohio, right?
Vitale: And those beverages were appealing to people, they do not have alcohol. A lot of them have very few carbs and calories, so it's not the calories of beer, or even light beer. It doesn't give people the effects of alcohol. So they were very popular, they're appealing to a lot of people who were trying to get away from alcohol.
Juravich: All right. So now that trend is no more. We're not allowed to do that. So the other trend you mentioned is breweries leaning into canned cocktails. Tell me about that.
Vitale: Tell me about that. Those are our pre-mixed drinks that are in a can. There's a few places I think, well, it's a distillery, but High Bank does some, I believe. They bottle some. There's also like hard seltzers and seltzer sodas, things like that. They'll probably look at more as the THC band is in effect.
Juravich: Tell me more about these breweries and their food business, because some of them also are trying to be like a restaurant and a brewery. You mentioned they're having events to try to bring people in. So what are you seeing in that idea of these brewerys trying to stay open, stay profitable, stay in business? Does food matter?
Vitale: I think it does. It brings people in. Columbus Brewing Company has restaurants in a lot of its taprooms. It's an appealing part. I was just trying to get in touch with the folks who own Rockmill Brewery out in Lancaster, they've been teasing something coming up.
Juravich: And and you don't know what it is
Vitale: No, we don't there people are commenting. They're wondering if it's a new restaurant or Some people suggested they might be doing jousting. I don't know why but
Juravich: Really?
Vitale: Which goes along with the programming idea.
Juravich: Should you be jousting if you're drinking? Perhaps not.
Vitale: But but you know they had a rock mill was very popular about a decade ago 15 years ago fell on hard times has new owners now they're still out in Lancaster they had a rest a great restaurant in the brewery district that closed in about 2022 and that space is still there so we'll be trying to get in touch with them to out what's coming up.
Juravich: Yeah, if they're listening, call Bob.
Vitale: Right. You have my number.
Juravich: Yeah. So what about this idea of breweries who are not doing the sit-down brew pub model? Are they popular in Columbus or are you finding that most of the most popular places have this sit- down stay- a-while model?
Vitale: They do, but you know one of the the one that won art we ran a brewery bracket in 2025 During the March basketball tournament. We do something different every year Our brewery Bracket was won by Stas Brewing, which is a small place in Delaware on the edge of the old part of Delaware and they don't have a menu a food menu I don't think they even have food.
They might have a food truck or two outside, but you know when I went there last year There were people waiting outside an hour early It's just a place where people hang out with the owners and it's a very close-knit group All they have is beer and and cocktails. So even small places do well, too
Juravich: When we mentioned the trends, so we can't do the THC trend anymore, we're not allowed to do that. And then there's the canned cocktail trend. What about the non-alcoholic beer trends? Are you seeing a lot of breweries adding the non alcohol, or alcohol-free, I don't know what they call it to their menus. I think they are, yeah.
Vitale: I think they are, yeah, and Places Doing Spirits, too. I think breweries are serving more than beer, too, actually. They're going into cocktails and craft cocktails, as well.
Juravich: So I know it's dangerous to ask a dining reporter, a food writer, for a favorite. So I'm not asking you your favorite. I'm just saying, which breweries would you recommend? Are there any new or lesser known places that you think people should check out? Maybe that you had that were a part of that bracket last year, you know, that kind of thing.
Vitale: I think Stas is a great place to try up in Delaware. It's a nice drive on a, it's a nice small place. It's corner bar. They do a lot of Belgian ales and a pretty good quality. I always like land-grant and Seventh Son too. I think they do a lot of interesting new kinds of things with their beer land-grant even has an experimental bar where they come up with Whoever has an idea they try it out and and test it out for customers
Juravich: So you mentioned one in Delaware, and then you mentioned two that are basically right in the heart of downtown. How far around the central Ohio area are we seeing? Are there breweries everywhere?
Vitale: They are really in every suburb. Gehanna has a few where I am. New Albany has a couple. Hilliard has quite a few. Grove City. Pretty much every sub-urb.
Juravich: Do you feel like that this trend though, that like sparked and everyone started opening breweries in the mid to late 2000s, is it going to continue? Is it sustainable?
Vitale: I think it's like restaurants, everyone, not everyone, people have that dream to do it. It's, I think, still an attractive hobby for people. One of the places that opened last year is a place called Campfire in Westerville. And it was folks who lived in a neighborhood and one started brewing and the other started hanging out with them and then four friends got together and opened the place. That's how a lot of them start. It's a hobby that turns into a business. And then if they're successful, that becomes their full-time job.
Juravich: All right. Well, I want to thank you for giving us an update on the local craft brewery scene. We've been talking with Bob Vitale, dining reporter for the Columbus Dispatch. Thanks for your time today.
Vitale: Oh, thank you, Amy.
Juravich: And coming up, we're gonna talk about some national changes and how people are drinking and the future of the craft brew industry. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Last year, Columbus ranked fifth in the nation for best beer city, according to a USA Today Reader's Choice Award. That was down from the ranking of third in 2024. The ranking cited the city's brewery district and extensive craft beer scene as big positives.
But there's another trend hitting the country. People are drinking less than they have in recent years with total beer consumption reaching its lowest point in a generation. What does less beer drinking mean for the craft beer industry nationally and in central Ohio?
Joining us to talk about where things might be heading is Joshua M. Bernstein, author, journalist, and consultant specializing in beer. He's written many books on beer, including "The Complete Beer Course" and "Drink Better Beer", and he happens to now call Columbus home. Welcome to All Sides, Josh.
Joshua Bernstein: Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Juravich: So for alcohol in general and beer included, why do you think Americans are drinking less than ever before?
Bernstein: I think in part is looking back sort of a pushback from what happened during the pandemic. We had extra money, we started pantry loading, you buy a bunch of beer, you by a buncha booze. And so anytime there's a moment of excess, there's kind of a pushback. And I think with health being so centered in people's brains, too, I think that's also like playing into it.
But on top of that, too. If you buy bunch of wine, you've got a bunch of like spirits, that stuff doesn't go bad at all. Right. So sitting on shelves. And so we're actually sitting on a ton of inventory in people homes as well. And so we saw people drinking at home. During the pandemic and after World War II and not really drinking in person, we're actually starting to see sort of the pattern shift a little bit now that so less consuming alcohol at home and more about going out again.
Juravich: Okay, so you think more people are going out again and still drinking, but maybe just having one or two.
Bernstein: They're drinking less, drinking more, I think specific. And Seb just saying, I want six beers, want to have these two or three great beers, two great cocktails. But also I think the bigger macroeconomic conditions of just people having less money, the younger generations coming out of college with less money and fewer job prospects never before. And so what is alcohol? Alcohol, it's kind of an everyday affordable luxury. And so when you take away the ability to buy luxuries, the simple things have to go. And so beer is one of them, and beverage alcohol in general.
Juravich: What do you think about the idea of drinking less beer? Are people drinking less fancy beer? Or are they drinking less Bud Light and Miller Light?
Bernstein: I mean, one of the things I always like to talk about in America is that we always think about craft beer and IPAs and everything, but still we're a light lager drinking country. It's Bud Light, it's Michelob Ultra, it your Coronas, your Modellos, so we're still drinking light lagers. That hasn't really shifted at all. That's really staying the same for what it's been for much of the last 50 years, I would say, on there too.
So I think when it comes to beer though, we're seeing sort of trends happening right seeing Japanese loggers becoming really popular again. With Sapporo, and Kirin, and Asahi being produced domestically now. Japanese breweries bought craft breweries to be able to produce beer stateside. We're seeing Mexican beer still having a moment right now, too.
And we're seeing, I think, a push toward more, I think, moderate beers full of flavor that are not just another 8% or 9% ABV bomb. I mean, look, we're saying, but that's also going the other direction as well. So we're seeing NA beers happen, but also 9%, 10% beers, people getting their bang for their buck, I'll say.
Juravich: So NA beers are no alcohol beers, right? Yeah, no alcohol.
Bernstein: Yeah, no alcohol. America is less than 0.5% alcohol. That's kind of the limit on there.
Juravich: And then when you say bang for their buck, you're talking about like really heavy duty beer.
Bernstein: Yeah. If you go to a convenience store, UDF gas station, you're going to see stuff like Voodoo Rangers, like 19.2 ounce cans of IPAs. So 9% ABV sold for I think three bucks a pop, give or take. So it's looking for this sort of a bang for your buck buyer. In a lot of ways, it's kind of like the new malt liquor for a lot of people, except even stronger and with more flavor.
Juravich: Okay, so you've been in the know about the craft beer scene nationally for years. How would you characterize what people are looking for now compared to 10 to 15 years ago?
Bernstein: I think 10 to 15 years ago. Yeah, I've been writing about beer for almost 25 years now, which is wild to say. So I've kind of seen it go from this really kind of the beginning of the surge upward and then what we're going through now. You know, 15 years go, you could make anything and everything through any ingredient in there. People would line up to buy it. They would try it. You would line for hours to buy beer. You would go to bars for takeovers and breweries. You know, the rarer, the better, you wanna try anything and everything, because it was in some ways kind of like an awakening. It's almost like getting into a new genre of music and you're like, what's punk rock? And you're, like, oh, I wanna hear about the Ramones and the Circle Jerks and on and on.
Juravich: Okay, so we started this show by talking about the abrupt closing of two BrewDog locations here in Columbus. They closed their Short North and Franklinton location very abruptly. As someone who follows beer, what did you think whenever you heard the BrewDog was closing those two places? Expected. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.
Bernstein: Yeah, I mean, look, it's over expansion within the broader marketplace without sort of building a brand. They built a cult of personality and now to be a brand
Juravich: Oh, okay. So, but the company that took over, they're known for their medicinal and recreational marijuana. Yeah. But now they're taking over BrewDog. They say they're going to keep BrewDog's US headquarters in Canal Winchester. What do you, what's your take on that? My takers are using that to-
Bernstein: produce a lot of beer for other brands out there. They're already in contract production. Contract production is when you basically, a company is like, hey, I'd like for you to make beer for me. And so they go out and they make the beer for them. So you don't own your own facility, another person handles production. So BrewDog has a massive facility for the ability to make a ton of beer. And I think Tilray just took on the contract to make Carlsberg domestically. And so you're looking at this as something where it's not just for making more BrewDog beer, it's making other people's beer.
Juravich: Okay. So the, so the, when you say that you're not surprised that those two, the Short North and the Franklin 10 one closed, what do you think whenever you look around at Columbus's beer scene was, was brew dog having a problem or do we have too many craft beer places?
Bernstein: You know, I always go back to the conversation about there are too many restaurants out there. We're always going to eat. There's always going be an opportunity for somebody else. But beer is a business like anything else, not increasingly hospitality business where you're going to see people that don't know how to run a business are going to close down. So right now, to be a brewery taproom, a brewer is not just a beer production place. A brewery, taproom is a place where you go and have an experience. You go and maybe get a cocktail, maybe get cider, a glass of wine, and just have a great experience altogether.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about beer nationally and local breweries with Joshua M. Bernstein, author, journalist, and consultant specializing in beer. So there's been a lot of craft beer trends, cans versus bottles, fruity beers. We mentioned the non-alcoholic or low alcoholic versions. There's the return of beer-flavored beer or whatever you wanna call it. What do you see as the up and coming trend right now?
Bernstein: Yeah, I just wrapped up a story yesterday about rice loggers. And so looking at sort of rice lokkers, rice has kind of been. OK, I don't know what a rice logger is. So yeah, if you've drank beer in America, you've had a rice lager. So rice is something that lightens the body, makes a crisper beer. So Budweiser, Bud Light are two prominent examples of sort of beers made with rice.
But what we're seeing now is sort of this Japanese cultural moment that we're having right now, where there's sushi in every grocery store. Japanese listening bars, Japanese cocktail bars and so on. So we're starting to see this sort of push toward Japanese beer and appreciation for Japanese culture really playing out in the country. So we seeing people making Japanese style rice loggers as a way to kind of create a crisp beer that's gonna be food friendly, it's just gonna go to restaurants.
But on top of that, by using rice like basmati, you can like tap into an Indian demographic. If you're using jasmine, maybe you can add a more multicultural audience on there too. So rice loggers, I think. Or a really unique way that people are going about to make beer a broader entry point for beer.
Juravich: Is there anyone locally making an interesting one?
Bernstein: Well, Seven Sons coming on the air necks on there, they make a Tuk-Tuk rice lager where they've been doing that for a while. And yeah, I mean, a rice lagers great food friendly beer. And as we're talking about breweries becoming as much of a restaurant hospitality place, you wanna have something that pairs well with the food that you're serving to.
Juravich: Alright, earlier we were talking with Bob Vitale from The Dispatch about the trend of the THC infused beverages, which now legally we're not allowed to have in Ohio, but that was really taken off. What's your take on that? Uh, in what sense?
Bernstein: Like in Ohio.
Juravich: Well, the fact that a lot of breweries had leaned into it and now they can't do it anymore.
Bernstein: Yeah, I think we think about breweries originally as being beer manufacturers, but breweries have long been beverage manufacturers. And broad. So if you think about, you know, Anheuser-Busch makes everything from flavored malt beverages to hard seltzers and beyond. So this idea of a brewery only making beers as purity of intent is kind of like misleading in a sense.
What breweries do, the breweries as beverage manufacturers are flavor merchants that deliver the flavors that people want. Maybe it's no booze, maybe it's sparkling hot water, maybe its a 9% IPA, maybe it's a THC beverage on there too. So I think it's really a sort of part of the evolution. Of breweries as making beverages for all people.
And I think, you know, with THC beverages, I mean, we talk about THC has always kind of been a handshake with beer. I mean how many parties you've been to where somebody's smoking a joint outside while drinking a beer. I mean this relationship has been going on for decades and decades and decade. So I think this sort of a complimentary way of brewery's making THC beverage's, consumers embracing both is totally acceptable and totally expected right now.
Juravich: Yeah, there's going to be a fight in the courts to try to repeal the law, but the law is in effect now. Do you think it's a shame for breweries that they can't do this or do they just need to be nimble and pivot to something else?
Bernstein: I mean, you pivot so much, you spin yourself in circles, I think. And I think that's the thing. And so breweries have pivoted nonstop since the pandemic. It's like, how do you find a way, shape and form to make this happen on there? And so what stinks is how quickly it was taken away. I mean you'll get Minnesota as a great case study, Minnesota legalized THC beverages. So breweries are able to sort of like plan out for this as being part of their mix.
Liquor stores can put on the shelves. I mean so I think it's a shame it was pulled away so drastically and before the federal legislation happened on there. And we can say that. The hemp beverages with THG came about because of a loophole that, you know, breweries and companies were able to exploit in a way. But exploit is also an opportunity, and it was an opportunity that met a burgeoning market need out there.
So I think it stinks that people found this viable business plan that people find beverages they enjoy that fit into their lives, either as an alcohol replacement or you're not drinking for the night or something else. The pursuit of like an honest little buzz is not something that should be penalized by people.
Juravich: I wanted to ask you about demographics, like who is out there sitting at the breweries drinking the beer? Are demographics shifting? Who is out? Or do they stay consistent of who the customer is?
Bernstein: Well, you know, I think the customer is getting older in that part, too. If you look at sort of at every hype cycle, you look back, think about using another band analogy, think back to your favorite band in your 2000s, right? They come back on tour right now. Are you asking me mine? Backstreet Boys. OK, backstreet boys. Look around the audience. How many people are going to be wearing, you know, Backstree Boys shirts going to be a certain age?
And so I think craft breweries in Columbus really started coming up, I think, late 2000s early 2010s. So looking here, you're going to see people in their 20s, 30s. Now they're going to be in their 40s, 50s with kids. So you're watching sort of, they're not going out as much. They have soccer practice, they've got work obligations. So they're gonna be going out as much on there too.
And so what happens, a report on this last year, so we're seeing a lot of breweries moving to the suburbs as a way to kind of get the beer parent in their natural habitat, as it were. You'll get Lewis Center, standardized brewing, opened up in a development out there. And you look at places like that, that are really I think catering to where. Beer drinkers are at today.
So the tap rooms are definitely aging a little bit, but there's still opportunity, I think, to get people in. It's not going to be the same pathways of just making a weird beer, putting on tap, expecting people to come in. You've got to have great events, you've got have anything and everything. I mean, hospitality is really at the heart. You know, I talk about this a lot, but when craft beer came about, you could go to a brick taproom with an Edison lightbulb and cinder block walls and dust on the floor. And you'd be so thankful to get an IPA served out of a plastic cup. You'd be like, oh my gosh, I did, I got fresh local beer.
But nowadays these tap rooms are really hospitality experiences. So people come in there and have the same expectations as they do of any bar or any restaurant, which is weird because breweries are manufacturing facilities. You don't go to, let's just say like a bakery, right? And be like this bakery better have not just bread, they better have, they better, you know. Other foods that they better have lo mein, they better pizza, they better all these things. And so I think that's the place that breweries are facing nowadays is that they start off as manufacturers and other hospitality companies and people treat them as bars and restaurants. And so you've got to think about how you can help all these people and the customers feel great about it.
Juravich: Is there a more common type of brewery now? Because there's beer being shipped to local stores. There's these sit-down brew pubs that are full restaurants. There's more of like smaller, just stand up only kind of places. What are you seeing now in the brick and mortar situation?
Bernstein: From a taproom perspective, yeah. Yeah, I think neighborhood focused on there. I think the days of taking over your city, your town, your, I mean, your state, the country are kind of over, but you can take over your neighborhood. So become a great neighborhood spot that really, I think you find what your neighbor likes. A lot of dog owners have dog nights, have patios, you know, a lot of parents have stroller things the morning when you're quiet. So I mean think about what your neighborhood is and give everything that you can to this neighbor, to make yourself an essential spot in your neighborhood
Juravich: So this is a dangerous question to ask someone, but you've been covering beer for years now. Do you have a favorite beer right now?
Bernstein: Favorite beer right now where I think the thing about you know before this we lived in New York City and I never got a chance to drink Ohio beer right? So much Ohio beer stays within its borders. I really enjoy the ability to drink a lot more Ohio beer. I think Columbus Brewing, who only makes beer for Ohio, their IPA is a staple on there.
Fathead's Headhunter, locally I love Gamut, over in Old Town East for a trip at Lager. 7 Sun to go hang out. St. James for a dive bar experience afterward on there, I think I tend to gravitate toward crisp, easy drinking, Pilsner's as well as clean West Coast IPAs without a lot of haze on there. I think, you know, you have your favorites for a while, but they tend to evolve. And I kind of gone back to what I drank 15 years ago.
Juravich: Oh yeah, and are you more so the type of person do you like to go to the brew pub and sit down or do you want to find it in the store and drink it at home?
Bernstein: You know, I like people and I work at home with my wife. My daughter comes home from school and they don't want to have happy hour with me. Oh, shocking. I know, it's all good. So I like going out. Look, I think part of the joy of going out for a beer is communal aspect of it all. Beer makes us talkative for a reason. You sit down with people.
Going out for beer is not going out for just a drink. It's going out community, it going out for connection, it is going out for conversations, going out to be seen. And find the unexpected out there. You're not gonna find the unexpectedly sitting at home on your porch. That's great sometimes, but I mean, I really try to go out as much as possible just to kind of meet people, talk to folks, and see where they're at.
I mean even walking through, oh gosh, OSU campus, I was like, all right, what's the trash in front of all the frat house lawns? I'm like, okay, natural light and bush light apple. It's like. And so it's like, okay, and that's actually like really salient points to think about. It's like okay, 21 year olds are drinking bush light apple and natural light and there's an empty bottle of pop off. What does that mean? So for me, I'm really curious about the landscapes around me, the trash we see, the people, the conversations we have, and how I think that really I think defines our culture as drinkers.
Juravich: Do you think, I mean, not that you can predict the future, but do you think 15 years from now, we're going to be talking about craft beer as much, or are we gonna be talking about something different?
Bernstein: We'll call it something different. I mean, look, we talk about that, you know, in the early eighties, it was microbreweries, right? And that's because micro, everything felt like the future, but with micro, processors get smaller and breweries got bigger. So craft became sort of a, I think a go-to adjective for people to help them describe it. But then craft became as useless as like artisanal. You know, when Panera has artisan bread at the bake shop, the name is kind of like lost.
And so then we tried independent, then breweries got bought. So what does that mean? So I think we're kind of in a world where we're fumbling with definitions right now. And I don't know if we need a definition anymore. I mean, I think what has been won is the battle for better tasting, full flavored beer in America. Where if I don't just have a landscape of light lagers, if you want something different, it's possible.
And I think, we're spoiled for choice right now, we have better options at any time to be, I think it's a better time to beer drink in America than any time in history right now And so I think we have all of these sort of, I know there's doom and gloom. Brewies are closing, but breweries are always closing. And the ebb and flow of American alcohol consumption is always going up and down.
I mean, the 60s beer was having a down period too. They were making malt liquor, not to compete with, for cheapness, but the appeal to the middle class. Brands like Country Club to compete with cocktail culture. And these battles and ups and downs, like NA beer was big in the 90s. Like nothing is really new. It's just like where are we at in the pendulum right now?
Juravich: I want to thank you for your time today. We've been talking with Joshua M. Bernstein, author, journalist, and consultant specializing in beer. Thanks for joining us.
Bernstein: Yeah, thanks for having me, appreciate it.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk about what it's like to own a brewery in Columbus. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. From the biggest national companies to the smallest garage beer houses, running a brewery is no easy task. Owners must constantly adapt to changing public tastes and trends. They have to keep up with competitors and deal with the ups and downs of the economy.
How has owning a brewer in Columbus changed over the years and what might the future look like, especially with the changes in the local brewing scene? Joining us now is Colin Castorm and Jen Burton, co-founders of Seven Sun Brewing. Colin, thanks for being here.
Collin Castore: Thank you very much for having us.
Juravich: And Jen, thanks again for being.
Jen Burton: Thank you.
Juravich: So you have been in business since 2013. Colin, how has business been for the past year compared to others?
Castore: Uh, the last year has been, um, cautiously optimistic. I'd say we're kind of seeing some of these same trends that, uh, Josh and Bob were talking about in terms of people wanting a sense of connection and to kind of become a community hub as much as we are a brewery.
Juravich: Jen, take me back to 2013. What were things like then when you decided, we're gonna do this, we're going to make it a thing.
Burton: Wow. We were there all the time. It was just a lot of grunt work. It was a lot a bartending, bar backing, cleaning. But it was awesome because we just recently had our anniversary party. And honestly, we saw a handful of the same people we saw in those first like, three, four months that we were open, which is pretty incredible. And I would say that those first three, for six months were a real sort of time in that neighborhood as well. And the turning point, which felt really cool to be a part of.
Juravich: Yeah. And Colin Josh just mentioned how important it is for a place like yours to be a part of the neighborhood. Tell me about your location and the neighborhood and how you feel there.
Castore: So our first spot, the original Seventh Son, we kind of found that because we had, Jen was living in Clintonville and I was going back and forth to Clintonville a great deal and we're like, hey, well everybody goes up Fourth Street, they'll probably stop off for a growler on the way home even if they won't hang out too much and this looks like a good spot. There was an abandoned, or not quite abandoned, but almost abandoned auto mechanic shop and. Almost abandoned, I like that.
We shared space with a lovely mechanic named Mohammed for the first six months while we were getting our building plans together. But yeah, the neighborhood really grew up around us. We became comfortable with it because the St. James was kind of there before us pioneering it. And then as we kind of grew into being a brewery for the neighborhood, the neighborhood grew up around us. Like there's just so much more on 4th Street than I could have even imagined a decade ago.
Juravich: Are people still coming into breweries like they used to maybe 10, 15 years ago, like 10, you know, when you started? Do you think is it improving or declining when you see people coming into your place?
Castore: Um, I would say that things are improving in terms of, uh, Tourism and folks coming in and then we're, we are still getting some new people. It's not quite the boom that it was pre COVID. I feel like there was a little bit of a boom to peak around 18, 19 and just people's general going out habits and everything shifted because of COVID. But we're still seeing a lot of new faces, and we're still getting younger folks. And it has as much press as the decline of beer has gotten. In reality, there's still a ton of people drinking beer, and a ton people who love beer. And we still see a lot those faces all the time.
Burton: Sorry, I'll just add that because we've been open so long, our regulars are rock stars and that they are people that keep the door open when you're an establishment.
Juravich: What Josh just mentioned a few minutes ago about people who started drinking and loved craft beer in their 20s and now they're in their 40s and 50s, is that your main clientele? Do you see those same people coming back again and again or can you find the new people?
Burton: I think we have to do it all, and we try to, and I think we're actually pretty good at it. You go in there at a happy hour and you've got an older demographic or sort of beer-focused people that might stop by on their way home from work, and then you have baby showers of folks that maybe went there when they were 21, and now they're married with children, and they're celebrating at 7th and you know, so. And then we get a huge crowd of people with, you know no kids, they're just partying, which is great. We get all kinds, so...
Juravich: Yeah, Colin, tell me about, you know, I noticed on your website you offer six pack delivery. Your beer is in restaurants and in stores. Do you need people in your actual brick and mortar location every day or do you need to meet people where they are?
Castore: Yes to both. Okay. It's About three quarters of our revenue ends up coming through our taproom location So it's seventh Sun antiques and getaway and then the other quarter Which is really important to keeping everything running and kind of keeping the scale of everything the way it needs to be comes from our wholesale and the other great thing is that when people go out and have a nice experience like have a humulus nimbus when They're sitting out at dinner at their favorite place. It makes them think of our brewery and think of like Hey, maybe I should stop in Seventh Son also. So it's this really nice kind of reciprocal relationship that the wholesale business we have has with the Tap Room itself, they help each other.
Juravich: And Jen, I mentioned in the beginning the ups and downs of the economy. What have you had to deal with? Have tariffs impacted you and find in sourcing your... What's the problem?
Burton: Everything. I mean, everything from t-shirts to, to, you know, anything you can think of, cleaning products, everything goes up, labor goes up. You know, it's just, and you want to be as fair as you possibly can be and you wanna be a great employer. So you end up trimming stuff, you feel like you can, you know, justifiably. And I don't know, you just have to, you do what you can. You sort of, we added food, which Colin, I think mentioned earlier, Which was a huge part of helping it make it work at Antiques and Getaway for sure. The food trucks have been rock stars at 7th Sun. Without them, business would be totally different, I would say that too.
Juravich: And you mentioned earlier, Colin, you know, the pandemic, there were consequences for restaurants and breweries all over the world. Do you feel like you're still building back from that? Or is it you know? Is this economy different than it was like, because 2020 and 2021 are very different than right now. But yeah, how does it feel?
Castore: How does it feel it feels more stable than? 22 23 24, but 25 26 still seems like it's a different Mindset about going out. It's a difference mindset about where value is and how many dollars people have to spend. And beer's really been, it's always been an affordable luxury, but almost to a fault, like people are very price sensitive about the cost of a pint.
And we kind of see there's not as much price sensitivity about a fancy cocktail or a glass of wine or things like that, but beer always has to kind of fit in that affordable luxury category. So we end up kind of feeling that push pull of like, we want to keep the pint prices really affordable, but We also need to raise prices because the whole world is raising prices around us with transportation and tariffs and all of these other pressures.
So it's a much different world. We're figuring out how to make people want to go out and have that experience at our place and what that experience is that's more than just I'm going to get an IPA. It's I'm gonna be social or I'm goin' to enjoy an environment or a patio or whatever it is, just kind of figuring out our place in that world, which is... Much more complicated to figure out than it used to be. Mm-hmm.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about local breweries with Colin Castorm and Jen Burton, co-founders of Seventh Sun Brewing. So I mentioned earlier in the show that studies show that overall people are drinking less. Beer consumption is at its lowest level in a generation. But you seemed a little dubious of that Colin. Are you seeing that play out at 7, son?
Castore: Slighty less, but we're talking about one or two percent. So if you think about it in those kind of terms, there's a way to make up a couple percent. If it was something like, hey, people are drinking 25% less beer than they used to, we probably wouldn't be sitting here today. But you figure out ways to get past that. It's dropping a few percent, but where can we find new guests?
Where can we, we were doing the THC beverages a little bit. Our cocktail program at Antiques on High is super healthy and like a big part of what we do. And we're doing some ready to drink cocktails and cans as well. So you figure out the other places you can make up those few percent to make up for it. So it's challenging, but it's not crippling.
Juravich: Okay, so the THC issue that you were making these THC drinks, Jen, now you are not allowed to. But so now you have to pivot to something else. What was your reaction whenever this went down with the the state deciding to ban the THC beverages. Sad.
Burton: In a word. Yeah. I think a lot of people were sad. It's nice to have options, you know, because you could still go to a bar and drink something else. I mean, luckily, we have any beverages and like any cocktails and any beer, which is great. And you just I mean it is what it is. They no longer are here. So you just, I mean you just don't sit at home because your favorite beverage is no longer served in public. You still are a human, you But it is weird, it's challenging, it is annoying. I'll say that. It was a.
Castore: It was, uh, I mean, we, we had a really good, or a, a deal we felt good enough about with SB 56 and DeWine line item vetoing that beverage part out of it really just pulled the rug out from everyone who was involved in the industry.
Juravich: Yeah, the House and Senate left the drinks in there, but Governor DeWine is the one to change that. Yeah, and we're still, they're still...
Castore: Active lobbying going on to try and get an override on it. And there's still the court cases in Sandusky and central Ohio. And there are some promising federal legislation that's come up recently too. So we're all kind of hopeful and we're waiting, but we're hoping that we don't fall behind because Ohio takes too long to get itself back together past this veto override.
Juravich: We started this show talking about BrewDog and the abrupt closing of the Short North and Franklinton locations. Now I know they're a competitor because they're different beer, but did that surprise you that the Short North and Franklintons locations both closed? Either one of you.
Castore: Uh, you know, I can't say I was shocked because I've kind of been following, like they've, uh, they, they seemed a little bit, I think Josh said it, they seemed a bit overextended. And also they did agree too fast. Yeah, and they the canal location I think they kind of found a home there and they got to know the local community a little bit But I don't think they they found that similar or got that similar buy-in from Franklin ten or the Short North So was I shocked not really? Just kind of surprised in terms of until Ray buying them Like it seems like they they got a really good value for what they bought and what they're gonna use it for in terms of contracting and everything so It's always surprising to see some giant deal happen in your backyard, but the individual locations I wasn't super surprised about.
Juravich: Before we run out of time, I wanted to talk about this idea of pivoting specific trends. You mentioned the non-alcoholic beers. Is that your big pivot? Is that what you're leaning into now or is there an up and coming trend? Josh earlier mentioned rice beers. I don't know, so what's next? Like what are you thinking about that's gonna take the place since you can't make these THC's anymore?
Castore: I'd say some low-alch stuff. We're kind of seeing people wanting more. And as I'm aging and almost 50 years old, like I kind of enjoy more of the 4% range rather than the 6 to 8% range. So we're exploring some different variations of 4% beverages, beers and other things that still have like a lot of flavor and are really enjoyable to drink but don't have quite the alcohol to them. Or the hangover that might be associated with it.
Juravich: Yeah, Jen, is there anything else you want to add? There's been a trend of fruity beers, beer-flavored beer, you know, all the trends. What are you seeing?
Burton: I think we're going to see a lot more people shotgunning NA beers. That would be wonderful. I think that's going to be a wave. We'll see.
Juravich: That sounds like an event you should have. So tell me about the event. So to bring people into your location, are you trying to have events, special nights, you know, reasons for people to show up on a Tuesday?
Burton: We have a lot of people come to us, which is awesome, because then it's collaborative and it's some sort of community event that's half-baked, and then we're the second part of it, so we can help host it. And then we host a lot events just for ourselves. We started hosting the Columbus Flea, gosh, like before we were a brewery, we had it in our parking lot, which was awesome, and I think we're going on 15 years of it. Which is great. We've got that. We've got. We usually do an Easter egg hunt for grownups on Easter.
We do our anniversary party every year. We have, we always play the OSU games, which is super fun because we play them with sound. It turns into a kind of a bonkers living room upstairs. But yeah, just a little bit of everything. We have drag yoga. We have you name it. It's probably happened there. Plants.
Castore: We try and kind of not over program it, but have things that people come to us pretty consistently and then we like to have things that we kind of come up with ourselves every four to eight weeks to throw in there also, just to kind of capitalize on like, hey, we know it's gonna be a nice patio day or we know, it's that certain time of year, kind of throw those things into, but it's become events are a huge part of our, between the three places, I think we had almost like. 400-Ish events over the course of a year, everything from...
Juravich: That's more events than days in the year.
Castore: Yeah, it's everything from just small charity happy hours to weddings, weddings. We're definitely the baby shower capital of Columbus.
Juravich: Duly noted for everyone drinking except the person of honor, yes. Well, I want to thank you both so much for your time. We've been talking with Colin Castor and Jen Burton, co-founders of Seven Sun Brewing. Thanks for joining us today.
Burton: Thank you so much.
Castore: Thanks.
Juravich: And this has been All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich.