Local control has been a bedrock of Ohio governance – with officials elected to represent villages, townships and cities. But if you ask many of those officials today, they’ll tell you that decisions they once made for their residents are increasingly being made by state lawmakers.
As they watch data centers reshape their communities, hear candidates talk about property tax rollbacks, and wonder what kind of authority they still have. We'll discuss what's on the minds of municipal leaders.
Guests:
- Kent Scarrett, executive director of the Ohio Municipal League
- Matthew T. Starr, mayor of Mount Vernon, Ohio
- Kyle Brooks, executive director of the Ohio Township Association
Transcript
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Amy Juravich: Welcome to "All Sides" with Amy Juravich. For municipalities, local control, or home rule, has been the bedrock of Ohio governance, spelled out in the Ohio Constitution. As such, cities and villages are separate, legal, and political entities. But if you ask many of those officials today, they'll tell you that their decision-making power is increasingly being preempted by state lawmakers. They watch as data centers reshape their communities, hear candidates talk about property tax rollbacks, and wonder if their authority is slowly being chipped away. Joining us now is Kent Scarrett, executive director of the Ohio Municipal League, which represents the interests of cities and villages to state lawmakers and the governor's administration. Welcome to "All Sides" Kent.
Kent Scarrett: Thank you so much, Amy.
Juravich: And also with us we have Matthew Starr, Mayor of Mount Vernon, which is located in Knox County, about 40 miles northeast of Columbus. Welcome to "All Sides" Mayor Starr.
Matthew T. Starr: Thank you, Amy. Glad to be here.
Juravich: Kent, I'm gonna start with you. I alluded to the numbers in the introduction, but can you give us an idea of how many different municipalities Ohio has? You know, tell me the numbers of villages and cities and such.
Scarrett: We've got over 900, 923, according to the census, cities and villages, which makes up municipal government in Ohio. And like you said, we have about 253 cities and the rest are villages. So well over 600 villages. Ohio is very local government-centric. We have a lot of municipalities in Ohio compared to other states and a lot local government in.
Juravich: And later we're going to learn more about townships, but how do township fall under this as well, whenever you talk a city, a village, and then the other word is township.
Scarrett: Township is the unincorporated areas. There's townships, municipalities and counties. Municipalities are incorporated. So there's some authorities and powers that are providing municipalities through the incorporation that are not provided through township's which are unincorrporated.
Juravich: Okay, when you're saying that, you mean like government. There's like elected officials. Is that what you mean?
Scarrett: Elected officials, different zoning authorities, different authorities that are given through the incorporation procedure that municipalities have that townships do not have. So there's varying powers. They play in the same sandbox as local governments, but there are different powers that a township and municipality.
Juravich: And just quickly define local control. It's also called home rule sometimes. Define what it means historically, because as you said, townships for the most part don't fall under home rule. And we'll talk about their authority later in the show when we bring our township expert. But define local controls from your perspective.
Scarrett: So local control is really the application of the home rule authority that was provided municipalities through the 1912 constitutional convention that took place in Ohio. In 1910, Ohioans voted to have a constitutional convention really focused on municipal issues and really focused on providing municipalities home rule authorities. They created article 19, section three and seven, which gives- Yeah, that old thing, which was kind of full employment for attorneys after 1912 to determine what is general law. And the language said in the constitution, it gives municipalities two things. The authority to exercise local government, self-local control, and also to institute and enforce police, sanitary, and other regulations that are not in conflict with general law, and general law is where ... The sticky wicket is, is what is the general law? And the courts have been deciding that and calling balls and strikes on actions that the legislature has passed that preempts or takes over the control of local decisions versus the struggle that municipalities have to use their constitutional authority. So general law is actually being played out right now. There's a court case before the... Ohio Supreme Court, June 4th, were arguments. It's Columbus versus Ohio, and it's the conversation of smokeless and flavorless tobacco products that some of our municipalities were regulating. The state legislature preempted that regulation, saying you can't regulate this tobacco product. It's now before the Supreme Court.
Juravich: To see if cities or municipalities have the authority to regulate it.
Scarrett: And also determine, the court is going to determine what general law really means. There's a four-point test right now that was part of the 1912 changes to the constitution. But one of the main tests, the third point of that four- point test talks about the state just can't tell a municipality you can't do something. If the state is going take away a regulatory authority, they have to replace it with a statewide regulatory authority.
And that's where we get into a lot of discussions and especially with the tobacco issue is there's not a replaced statewide regulatory scheme that replaces the municipal scheme. The state just can't say municipalities, you cannot regulate this. They have to replace it with another system of regulation.
Juravich: This is that sticky wicket you were talking about. That's the sticky wick. All right. Well, Mayor Starr, tell us more about your community, Mount Vernon, one of those 253 cities in Ohio that we mentioned. Tell us the population, your top employers. Tell us about your city.
Starr: Sure. Well, thanks again for having me on the show, Amy. I really appreciate it. And I am really just quite blessed and honored to be able to serve as the elected mayor for the city of Mount Vernon. We're about 17,000, between 300 and 600 strong. Our daytime population, however, is over 30,000. So we have a lot of people coming into the town to do business. We've been a city since 1805, and our top employers, well, our top industries are manufacturing. Health care and education are the top ones. And so we've got a lot of, the Aerial Corporation that you might have heard of making the natural gas compressors, they're a wonderful employer. International Paper, Gelled When, and then we also have Knox Community Hospital, which has just sold the Kettering, who will be taking ownership of it. And in the county, we have six school districts as well, including a career center. And so it's a really happening place. We've got a lot going on, and it's become pretty cool to be in Mount Vernon.
Juravich: All right, and can you tell me some of the biggest challenges your community is facing? What are some things that worry you, maybe keep you up at night?
Starr: Well, I would say probably my top three biggest concerns are fiscal sustainability and really by that I mean can local government continue providing what citizens expect as costs rise and revenue tools change. So that's the first one. The second one is infrastructure and this is something that many municipalities, cities and villages are struggling with from aging equipment in terms of not only roads, but sidewalks. Mobile use pass, opportunities for people to transport themselves if they don't own a vehicle. Of course, there's water and wastewater. We're looking at a massive improvement or a renovation to our wastewater treatment plant and our water treatment plant because Mount Vernon is growing right now. But some of those parts have been operating 24-7 for 70 years and they're wearing out. Stormwater is another area that is part of our infrastructure with flood control, with levee, with being able to prevent other environmental things happening downstream from us, and also just general public safety. So the decisions that we're making today create obligations for generations. So infrastructure is one of those things that I have to think generations from now. I can't just think about solving today's problems. And then the third biggest concern, I would say, for me, is maintaining local authority. But with that, I will also say that comes accountability. And if local officials are responsible for results, then we need reasonable tools to be able to help solve those local problems.
Juravich: And that's why we're talking here today. It's that local authority, that local accountability. This is "All Sides" on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about local control with Kent Scarrett, Executive Director of the Ohio Municipal League, and Matthew T. Starr, Mayor of Mount Vernon. Kent, in preparation for today's discussion, you made a list to illustrate what you see as the erosion of local control. It's a pretty lengthy list. We won't get to everything, but. We're going to talk about taxes in a few minutes when we bring Kyle Brooks on, who's the executive director of the Ohio Townships Association. So I wanted to start with a hot button issue, but you have it listed as number nine on your top 10 list. But it's the you note that pending legislation limits local authority. So but data centers. So you have, it is number nine. On your list, there's legislation out there. But you say it limits local authority. In what ways? Talk to me about how data centers ended up on your top 10 list, but you know, maybe not top top.
Scarrett: Well, that is House Bill 646, which is the big piece of legislation that the legislature is studying to affect changes on the operations and administration of data centers in Ohio. One of the biggest preemptions that is involved in this conversation that the state is having is limiting the tax incentives. They want to cap them at 50%, 75% if you're on a brownfield. But you know interfering in those negotiations on the local level is challenging to us. These incentive packages are often leveraged against other parts of the package that incentivize more cooperation, more investment in communities in different ways. It's all part of a strategic dance, basically, to form the right package and right negotiation posture for the community. And when the state says we're gonna limit your tools or we're going to limit what you can offer or discuss in your negotiations. That impedes the plans for our communities. Each community is different. It has its own set of unique characteristics and set of priorities. And so that's a preemption and that's the state saying, we know better than you on negotiating these packages.
Juravich: Mayor Starr, I read that Knox County has no data centers currently, but is working on writing zoning laws related to them. Is that correct? I mean, do you, as a mayor, have any concerns over data centers and whether the state's trying to do something with property taxes related to data centers?
Starr: Sure, well, I would say that the county is looking at that, not necessarily the city. However, I think the important thing to remember about data centers is that we need to keep in mind, well, let me just say, I'm not pro data center, I'm on anti data center. I'm pro good development. And so a billion dollar investment isn't automatically a billion benefit to the community. And really what we have to ask are the tougher questions. And this is what we have to do. All the math all the way through. And this is the beauty of being able to provide that guided discussion, that discovery through the local government process. For example, jobs, what's the permanent employment going to be after construction? How much power, what capacity, and who bears the infrastructure costs for that? Water and sewer, what is the capacity and the long-term demand? Roads, are there going improvements and how is future maintenance going to paid for? I would also say you and Kent talked about the incentives. What's actually being collected versus what is being evaded? The land use, is this the right location? Is it the surrounding impacts? And this is an opportunity that we can discuss later, if you like, how townships and cities can come together and really work together. And then long-term, again, planning for generations. What does this look like 20 and 30 years down the road? But again, a billion-dollar investment isn't necessarily a billion dollar benefit to the community that we have to answer the tougher questions. And we had this question back in the 1800s when the railroad went in. The community wrestled with this then, just as we are today with Day Descenters. It's a new railroad. So we're not alone in the world right now, nor are we in time.
Juravich: Oh, it's the new railroad. I like that. I'm going to steal that. OK, Ken, before we have to take a break, I alluded to that top 10 list of concerns for the High Municipal League. Number one and number two on your home rule list is firearms regulation and flavored tobacco regulation. So you already talked about the flavored tobacco. But tell me why, like with firearms, too, why are these the top issues related to home rule?
Scarrett: Firearms and the Second Amendment has been a very engaged conversation in the State House for quite a while, advocates for Second Amendment and those that, from our perspective, that really want to enforce the priorities and the concerns of their community. Issues that are happening in Cleveland are different, you know, related to guns and firearms than it is in Bucyrus, let's say, or a smaller community. So that's where the flexibility and local control and the beauty of home rule is communities decide to address and engage with their local citizens on the priorities of their community, and then have those regulations in place.
Juravich: So let cities decide some gun regulations as opposed to the state making all the decisions related to guns.
Scarrett: That is correct and and they have the state has preempted from top to bottom every issue related to to firearms Including safe storage or some of the really, you know Kind of smaller issues that really get to safety issues in our community and the priorities of our communities Um, so we don't have any regulation on the municipal side at all firearms. We've been stripped of all those authorities
Juravich: Mayor Starr, so Kent is listing firearms regulation and flavored tobacco regulation as two of his biggest home rule issues that he takes up with the state. What about those two topics for residents of Mount Vernon? What are your thoughts on that?
Starr: Well, as far as residents in Mount Vernon, no one here smokes, so we don't have that problem. It is something that we haven't had the necessity to have to regulate that yet, but it is something that is occasionally spoken about. We have other issues that are taking, other law enforcement issues that take top tier right now. As far as guns, we're very much a conservation community. And so we have several hunters, fishermen, and we've got wonderful law enforcement, educational opportunities. And so, we've embraced it in Mount Vernon as if you're going to own a gun, then show the responsibility, know how to operate that properly, get your hunting license, make sure that you're taking. Classes and being well taught and keep that current. And so I think that hasn't really crossed our desk.
Juravich: Yeah, but do you see the point though if you wanted to pass a law related to flavored tobacco or you wanted a pass a lot in any way shape or form related to guns, what do you think of the state telling you no, you can't?
Starr: I think we have to be careful when the state decides to set a law that it becomes a floor, not a ceiling. So there needs to be some local control to be able to take that on. We can figure it out, and there's no substitute for local wisdom solving local problems. But with that comes local accountability, because we're the ones responsible for the results. And so there's that part of the coin as well.
Juravich: This is all sides on 89.7 NPR news. Our guests are staying with us and coming up, we're going to talk about property tax reform and we'll be joined by the executive director of the Ohio Township Association. That's when all sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to "All Sides." I'm your host, Amy Juravich. We're talking this hour about local control and local government. And we're gonna turn our attention now to townships. 35% of Ohioans live in one. Townships derive almost all the revenue from property taxes. And all the talk at the state house from the gubernatorial candidates is about tax reform. And rollbacks have local leaders worried. Still with us is Kent Scarrett, Executive Director of the Ohio Municipal League. Thanks for being here, Kent.
Scarrett: Thank you.
Juravich: And also still with us is Matthew Starr, Mayor of Mount Vernon. Thanks for being here, Matthew.
Starr: Thank you, Amy.
Juravich: And joining us now is Kyle Brooks, executive director of the Ohio Township Association, which represents Ohio's 1,308 townships. Welcome to "All Sides," Kyle.
Kyle Brooks: Thank you so much.
Juravich: I had no idea we had 1,308 townships until we looked it up, you know, Ohio has a lot of township. And so as I said, it's more than I realized. I learned from your website that it's a form of government that actually predates the state government. And there are three trustees, a fiscal officer, and they're all elected, right?
Brooks: That is correct.
Juravich: Okay, so give us a primer on the role of townships in government historically.
Brooks: Sure, so again, predates the state government. There are three trustees and one fiscal officer elected in every single township, no matter what the size is. That has been the case for a tail's oldest time. Our responsibilities really are road, maintenance, and cemeteries. That's really about it. But then the higher revised code gives us other abilities such as police, fire, zoning, things of that nature.
Juravich: That's what I thought you were going to say, fire and police. I, so not all townships do fire and police. Is that correct?
Brooks: That is correct. Yeah, so we have about a hundred townships that have police departments and then around 400 with fire And then there's some more with volunteer firefighter departments
Juravich: Okay, and then the road maintenance, if the road is in the township, then does ODOT not take care of the road the town ship does, how does that work?
Brooks: Yeah, so the townships in the state have 41,000 miles of road, which is more than ODOT. Okay. Yeah, we take care of a lot of miles of roads.
Juravich: Okay, and take care of it in the idea of repairs, snow removal.
Brooks: Repairs, snow removal, chip seal, potholes, ditches, right-of-ways, on and on and off.
Juravich: Okay. So when I report a pothole, sometimes it's a, it's, uh, township has to take care of it.
Brooks: It's possible.
Juravich: So I know the utmost thing in your mind though is taxes specifically property taxes talk about how townships rely on property taxes
Brooks: So townships, our former revenue is property tax. We do not levy an income tax, and we do not collect any sales tax. So there's obviously some fees and things of that nature, gas tax, LGF. But generally, township's revenue source is 85% to 99% property tax, so if any reforms or reductions or the elimination, we're in a bad way.
Juravich: Okay and what about your city Mayor Star? Does the city of Mount Vernon rely on property taxes?
Starr: We rely a little bit, yes. We are able to take part in a little bit of what's called inside millage. It's that non-voted amount of property tax that we can take advantage of. And we get about, it's up to 10 mills. We get about 3.2, 3.3 mills of that inside milledge. And it does help our. It does help us pay some bills. We use that money to pay for our police and fire pension fund. We also put some of it to Capital projects, but I know other communities other smaller villages that inside millage is their entire budget
Juravich: Okay, so Kent, overall, from the Ohio Municipal League standpoint, what are you hearing from your members on the issue of property taxes right now?
Scarrett: Well, they're very concerned. Municipalities receive about 6% of the 24 billion that is collected in property taxes. So townships and schools receive the most revenue from property tax. Municipalities received kind of the lower end, but it all plays into the equation of our strained funding system and our straining finances. You know, the state cut the local government fund back in 2011. By over $500 million, made other tax changes revenue sharing that added up to about $1.2 billion of cuts to local governments. So that shifted the reliance or the funding partnership that we enjoyed with the state and made generation of local revenue more important. The municipal income tax is the most important revenue source for two-thirds of our municipalities that has its own income tax within the municipal boundaries. But that property tax component becomes more crucial and more reliant as the state relieves or starts reducing that state aid. So especially our smaller communities, the levies that they put on for police and fire in smaller communities are really property taxes. And so our smaller are even more dependent on property taxes, especially because they have a smaller base for income tax collections.
Juravich: So Kyle was saying how townships are in charge of roads and cemeteries and then some township have police, fire, paramedics, you know, and all of them seem different from that aspect. For villages and cities, is it all different or is there one universal thing all villages have to do or anything like that?
Scarrett: No, but the biggest expenditure in our revenue is police and fire. That makes up about 70 to 80% of our general revenue funds. So that is the largest expense that we have, and those pressures continue to mount with recruitment, retention, cost overruns for equipment and infrastructure maintenance. So, you know, villages, if they can afford it, or if they have the tax base to support their own, especially police force, we have 48,000. I'm sorry, 48,000, yes, municipal police officers, the largest police force in Ohio. If not, they contract with the sheriff for that service. But police and fire is by far our largest revenue expenditure, and it's what our residents and our businesses look at as the most stable and important service that municipalities provide.
Juravich: And it's paid for by property taxes. The state passed limited property tax reform in this past session. There's still a lot of proposals related to property taxes out there at the state level. Plus there's a citizen led initiative called Act the Tax that wants to get rid of property taxes altogether. They didn't collect enough signatures this time for the fall ballot, but they said they're gonna keep trying. So Kyle, what would it mean for townships if this Act the tax ended up on and voted for and we completely eliminated property taxes.
Brooks: Sure. So can't mention 24 billion dollars collected in property tax. Townships as our sole source of revenue collect one point five billion of of that 24. So it's it's 7 percent while we don't collect income and we don't collect sales. Right. So municipalities they have income tax. Counties they also have sales tax. Right? So they're collecting both and we only collect one.
Juravich: Would you be allowed to start collecting income taxes if property taxes went away?
Brooks: We would not unless the General Assembly would give us of that authority So should the elimination happen if the you know General Assembly is very generous and allows us to collect an income tax then some of our townships would survive Otherwise, you know our take is that there are township's that will will not exist anymore
Scarrett: And that would be a difficult thing for municipalities, because it's siloed right now. Municipalities only get income tax. We don't get any sales tax. We get very little property tax. If there is a need for that for an additional income tax play, that would challenge the stability of the municipal income tax, because people would be taxed on their income over and over and they'd say, enough.
Juravich: Extra income tax. Then we'll have an Ax the Tax Income Tax ballot issued next. Exactly. And then no tax. All right. There's another proposal out there. Two Republican lawmakers want to ask voters, not this year, but in the future, to cap property tax increases at 3% a year. What do you think of that if there was a cap?
Brooks: So my understanding is that there's already a cap in place because of House Bill 335. So 335 capped it at the rate of inflation. And I think it's whatever inflation is or the less of three, I think, it's three percent I'd have to look, but so there already is a cap. Now it's not a constitutional amendment, you know, but it is in law where you can't it.
Juravich: I see. So if it's a constitutional amendment and it gets into the Constitution, it's harder to change. But right now, if you have, if it is 3% for that bill, they could, you know, the lawmakers could just say, let's make it 4%. Yeah. Okay. Okay, this is "All Sides" on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about local control and efforts to roll back property taxes. We are talking with Kent Scarrett, Executive Director of the Ohio Municipal We're talking with Kyle Brooks, executive director of the Ohio Township Association, and Matthew Starr, mayor of Mount Vernon. There are two major party candidates for governor, Republican Vivek Ramaswamy. He has advocated for rolling back property taxes. And his Democratic challenger, Amy Acton, has proposed tax cuts as well. Ramasvamy has promised to roll them back to pre-pandemic levels and creating the largest property tax rollback in Ohio history. He had a sit down interview with Karen Kastler from the Ohio Public Radio State House News Bureau. And he said, I am confident that we can roll back property taxes without hurting local police, fire or schools, which is important to me. That's what he said. Do you all believe that statement?
Brooks: I think where we wouldn't be hurt is if the state, you know, essentially went back to the LGF that was in 2011. We would need more help from the state in terms of funding in other places because again for us, it's property tax only. So you know kind of a loaded question.
Scarrett: Yeah, and that's right. I mean, if the state's going to create tax policy that's going to impact the revenues of our local government, it should be incumbent upon the state to provide replacement dollars so that those pressures don't continue to fall down on our local taxpayers, strain the ability to deliver services that our communities depend on. And look, our services are already significantly strained by just general inflation, by all the cost overruns, everything. You know, our communities are the largest employers. And so, you know, they have all these cost overruns for infrastructure and HR. So if the state's gonna affect these changes, if a candidate or a governor wants to reduce the property tax, they shouldn't have the local taxpayers on the line. They should be support so that there isn't this hole in our budgets.
Juravich: Acton has proposed property tax cuts targeted toward middle-income and older and disabled Ohioans. She says it'll happen through an expansion of the homestead exemption and a tax rebate that's triggered when certain homeowners' property taxes bills go up by more than 4%. But Kyle, your group has met with both candidates. I mean, what are you saying to them about what you hope to see? And has your group endorsed either candidate.
Brooks: So the OTA does not endorse any candidates and we don't donate any funds to any candidates at all. So we met because again, our powers come from the state government and Title V of the Ohio Revised Code. So it's very important for us to have relationships with the governor, with the general assembly. And we just shared the services that we provide, 35% of the population, how much townships contribute to the economy. Again, what happens to all of our miles of road, all of cemeteries, all of the fire departments, you know, if we go away. You know, municipalities, counties cannot take over all of miles of our road, right? Just the cost to pave a mile of road now is a million dollars. You know an ambulance or fire truck is four or five million dollars, you know? And you have to wait five years for it. So, you now, we're just. Giving them education, you know, on what we do, who we are, because, again, people get mixed up with a township is the same as a city, is the same as the village, and it just is not the case.
Juravich: Kent, what about from your perspective? Do you endorse a candidate? Do you talk with them about their policies?
Scarrett: Yes, we don't endorse. We don't finance contribute to campaigns at all. No financial contributions, no endorsement. We're agnostic. And we talk both to the candidates themselves and to their interior leadership. And we have those conversations with them just so that they know what they're getting into, just so they understand. Both these candidates didn't come from government. They don't have any past elected experience. So they're kind of coming in, I'm sure they understand government, but they haven't been in it. So it's really important to kind of level set how local government works, how municipalities work, how townships work, what the effects are of state policy and what the affects are to the residents of our state.
Juravich: Mayor Starr from Mount Vernon, do you, how much state money does your city get? Do you have any involvement? Do you get state money?
Starr: We get a little bit from the local government fund. I think it turns in to be about, maybe it might be about a million dollars a year, which is about, I would say, 5% of our general fund, if you will. The nice thing about that, and Kyle will even tell you as well, is nobody can do, nobody can stretch those dollars better than local governments. We know exactly where to invest that. Township trustees know where the problems are, and they will invest those money. That those monies where it needs to go cities and villages will do the same thing the advantage of that local government fund Is that it is unrestricted? We know where to put it We don't have to I don't had to pull staff off of my engineering team to run reports and do all of that for any Grants or so forth and so it is a it is a it is an invaluable tool That you know, we got into hardship and in during after the Great Recession, but we've been able to build that back up But the LGF is a great partnership between the state and the local governing agencies.
Juravich: Yeah, and before we take a break, Mayor Starr, just because we're going to have to say goodbye to you. I wanted to get kind of just a final parting words from you from from up in Mount Vernon. You said your three biggest priorities are physical sustain, fiscal sustainability, infrastructure, and then local authority with accountability. So just touching back on that, you know, this hour is basically about how the state is trying to preempt some local control. Perhaps take away local control, have the state make the decisions, take away some of the decision-making from local governments, cities, et cetera. What would you say about that? Because you just basically said that the smaller entities know what they're doing, so. Yes, we do. Yeah, go ahead. What would be your final words for state lawmakers?
Starr: Well, for state lawmakers, and I have actually reached out to several bipartisan, bicameral, I would really like to see a municipal caucus form in the general assembly, where mayors and city council members and municipalities can be seen more as partners when they won't, you know, state lawmakers wanna propose legislation. Is really, it comes down, Amy, it really comes down to this. It's government should be close enough to understand the problem, empowered enough to solve it, disciplined enough to spend it wisely, invest it wisely and accountable enough to answer for the results. And so we just need a little bit of help from the state to be able to do that. Local wisdom is invaluable and that's where we would look more toward the state as partners.
Juravich: I want to say thank you for your time. We have been talking with the Mayor of Mount Vernon, Mayor Starr. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Starr: Thank you, Amy, it's a pleasure.
Juravich: And staying with us, we have Kent from the Ohio Municipal League and Kyle from the Ohio Township Association. Coming up, we're going to talk about the future of municipalities and townships, and we'll bring up that word consolidation. That is when "All Sides" continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to "All Sides." I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Ohio has many layers of government, townships, villages, cities. Local control has long been a bedrock of Ohio governance. But elected officials today say that decisions they once made for their residents are increasingly being made by state lawmakers. We're talking this hour about local control, local governments, and the impact of state laws, tax proposals, and federal funding cuts. Still with us is Kent Scarrett, Executive Director of the Ohio Municipal League. Thanks for being here, Kent. Thank you so much. And also with us, Kyle Brooks, Executive director of the Ohio Townships Association. Thanks for being here Kyle. Good to be here. And does it make sense to have this many layers of government? So we have 88 counties, 253 cities, 1,308 townships, 670 villages. I consolidation is a topic that comes up. Kyle, what do you hear from if neighboring townships if consolidations just make sense?
Brooks: Sure. So the OTA's opinion is it's up to the residents that are within that community. There's a code section where townships can merge today. Townships of a certain size can incorporate if their voters vote for it. So, again,
Juravich: Meaning they can become a city.
Brooks: They can become a village or a city, correct. But it's up to their community to do that. When it comes from the state and they say, you know, you shall do this, communities don't really like that. They like where they live. They like their form of government. Otherwise, they would live somewhere else.
Juravich: And Kent, from your perspective, what about consolidation? Cities merging seems like a dramatic thing, but villages merging doesn't seem as dramatic.
Scarrett: Well, we haven't really had any villages merge. We've had villages dissolve and become townships. So it's sort of like a show game a little bit. We're not really reducing the numbers. We're just kind of calling it different things. When you talk about consolidation, one of the topics is sharing services. Instead of getting rid of communities, it's hard to get rid of a hometown, a football team, your school. But you can share services. And that was a big emphasis when the local government fund was cut and these dramatic cuts were made in 2011. But our communities were doing that before the state said this is a good idea. You know, we were in a recession in 2008, 2009 that led up to these drastic cuts by the state government in 2011, so we were already finding ways to maximize our services, to share services, to consolidate services, but That sort of has been kind of played out. Those opportunities have been explored and are working now. So we're really at the bone of what we can share and what we cant. And then you get into consolidation, getting rid of or ending political subdivisions. And like Kyle said, I mean, there's a lot of pride in our communities. There's a lotta pride in the township you live in, there's lot of in the city or village you live, the school you went to. And so that is a really tall order for the legislature to say, okay, we're going to cut half of the townships or whatever. One of the largest conversation in consolidation I think is surrounding school districts. I think 611 school districts, so, you know, maybe there's some- Maybe there's some models.
Juravich: And they consolidated in the past. There was a big consolidation, you know, decades ago and so that has also more to do with if you consolidate school districts, are you going to stick a kid on a bus for an hour because of how rural your county is?
Scarrett: Exactly. Right. So it's a hard, hard.
Juravich: Kyle, you mentioned, you know, lawmakers telling you to do this. Have lawmakers in the past told townships they need to consolidate or anything like that? Have there been bills proposed?
Brooks: So that's why the OTA was created 99 years ago. So there was a committee that was formed to look at local government and consolidation. The recommendation was to get rid of townships and township's came together and formed the O.T.A. So, I mean, it kind of, you know, our organization was birthed out of this idea 99 or 98 years ago
Juravich: So 98 years ago, lawmakers wanted to get rid of townships. That's correct. And that didn't happen. Has it been proposed since or has it not?
Brooks: It's it's I don't know if it's ever been you know, you shall consolidate but there's there's always incentives, right? I there's a bill, you know if you consolidate a fire department, you can get a million dollars right from the state You know, there's the idea of oh, well, let's give them the carrot first So, you don't have to give them this the stick later
Juravich: This is "All Sides" on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about local control and we're talking with Kyle Brooks, executive director of the Ohio Townships Association, and Kent Scarrett, executive director the Ohio Municipal League. Kyle, I wanted to pivot back to data centers because we talked about that before you came on the air earlier in the show. I wanna get the township associations take on data centers. It's a topic that is really impacting residents. Residents are pushing back on data center. Policy measures are getting discussed. There's electricity concerns. I mean, there's so much there. What has your association been saying about data centers?
Brooks: Sure. So like many things, our stance is if you want something, you should be able to have it. If you don't, you shouldn't be forced to accept it. You know, in terms of economic developments or, you know, building homes on quarter acre lots and things of that nature. You know for us, only roughly 40, 50% of our townships are zoned. So there's many, many townships in rural areas that have zero zoning at all. Um... And you know anybody can build anything anywhere at any time uh... Without
Juravich: Without the township's approval?
Brooks: Without any approval at all, correct.
Juravich: How do you fix that?
Brooks: The townships don't want to because it's up to the residents if you want zoning and some of the other things. It goes to the ballot and they just they don't you know it's private property rights.
Juravich: Oh, okay. Oh, I see because they're like I want to be able to do whatever I want with my land without someone telling me which is more
Brooks: Which is more more power to them, right? Yeah or local control. We're for that But it's also you know zoning it's a protection of property. It's protection of you know, home values a lot of things
Juravich: But if there's no zoning, is it easier for the state to come in and like lawmakers and the governor to make a deal and say, we want this company to come here. They're gonna build a massive building and it's gonna be on your land.
Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. You know, those areas in the part of the state, they're rural communities, and we have townships have the most amount of land available. So where are you going to put a data center, you know, a mega center that needs 500 to a thousand acres? Columbus, Cleveland, you now metropolitan areas, they don't have a thousand acres that give up, but township in the state they certainly do.
Juravich: Is this where we get into when you hear township trustees and elected officials in township say, I felt like the whole decision was made before we even had the meeting?
Brooks: Absolutely. Is that what you mean? Absolutely. There's just some areas where we don't have any control or limited control. Again, because our powers are not inherent home rule like cities, anything we do has to be written very explicitly in the higher revised code. And so that's where sometimes we don't have an option. You have to accept the data center, whether 100% of your residents want it or not.
Juravich: So even if the residents all voted and said no to the data center, you still might have to accept it.
Brooks: Pretty much.
Juravich: Have you talked with state lawmakers about this?
Brooks: We certainly have we certainly have and and look, you know the the state I in my opinion, I think that they're looking at it. They're you know, obviously everybody, you know has a cell phone right like everybody's you know facebook and all these things we we need Data centers to you know power the future the economy all these things um, but they also see sales tax receipts, uh, which is going to be a huge huge, you know, boom to, you know, the economy. And and that's kind of where the state stops, right? Like they don't have to deal with, you know, the everyday Dealings the construction the you know the the roads All of that. They don't to deal that but they're collecting billions and billions of dollars and where on our end You know if there's exemptions that the state gives that's what I'm not going to ask about
Juravich: That's what I was just going to ask about. So what about the property tax exemptions? If property taxes are your bread and butter, 80 to 90, 99% property taxes. So then lawmakers make this deal. They want the project to be on this land and they give them a property tax break for 40 years. What does that mean?
Brooks: It's a huge hit. And that goes, and it's almost any industry, you know, home buildings or house, you know building homes, it's the same thing. When you exempt the property from property tax for any amount of time, we receive no revenue and then have to service that area as well. So if you, you, know, heaven forbid a data center has a fire or, you know, has an EMS call or something like that, essentially those businesses are getting the service for free. Which the other residents are paying for because they don't pay any property tax. We don't collect any income tax on the workers and we don't collect any of the sales tax that they're selling on their product. So we are providing service essentially for free in some of these instances with these exemptions.
Juravich: Kent, it sounds that the members of your organization have more protections than this. The lawmakers can't plop a data center in a city. Is that true? Or could they if they had enough land to find?
Scarrett: No, we have much more authority regarding regulating zoning and land use. But the trend is, you know, the hyperscale of data centers has really changed the conversation. The size of the data centers. We've always had data centers around New Albany has always kind of been the leading incubator for data centers, but there were smaller operations. Now these operations are becoming mega operations, and so they need to go out into larger swaths land. Where the municipal play comes in is they need utilities in municipalities, especially water. They've got the you know, because water is a function Largely of municipal government and so we can provide the water and so that's where we get into issues on Municipal exposure if it's not in our municipality We still have exposure by how they're using our facilities how they are using our services and managing those services so that our ratepayers aren't carrying the load on these hyperscalers that are using way more product and way more utilities than the others. So, but the municipalities were kind of the first home of data centers. We have zone authority. We can regulate where they go and where they don't go. We haven't been preempted on that. But as these projects scale, they're moving out in a larger community or larger swaths of land and some municipalities are engaged in that as well.
Juravich: I feel like you said we haven't been preempted and you wanted to add a yet there.
Scarrett: Well, there's always a yeah, there is always a yet and um, you know, I mean You know, i'm concerned about a federal preemption as well. I see. Yeah I mean it might just not be the state. It might be the minister the federal administration saying, you Know you will take these
Juravich: All right. Well, let's put that in a box for a minute, because we only have a few minutes left. But Kyle, on the Township website, there's guidance on how to help Townships communicate with their residents. Is that to help raise the profile so people know what Township's are, know the work they do, just to make residents aware of what their property taxes are paying for.
Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. We tell our members, you know, the townships to be honest and upfront with their community, and almost all of our members are. You know, for us, when it comes to property tax and levies, we have very specific funds. There are very few township that have a general fund property tax levy. So when you put something on the ballot, it is a fire levy that can only be spent on fire. A road levy can only spent on road maintenance. So for us it's very transparent and we tell you know our members be transparent with your residents And it comes through our renewal rate for levies is ninety eight percent. Yeah. Yes, so and and regular levies around ninety
Juravich: That's renewal though. What about asking for new ones?
Brooks: New ones, it's still, it is about 90% for all.
Juravich: I feel like when people go to the ballot they understand voting like when it says fire or like EMS or police and they're like they understand because they see fire trucks they know what it's for. But voting for a trustee, do you think people know what a township trustee does?
Brooks: Hit or miss. I mean, you know, for us, we have a poll. We have the highest satisfaction of local government. And so, you know, our trustees, generally, they're your neighbor. Most of the residents have the cell phone. Our trustees are in the plow trucks plowing the road, you know, and they're always available. So my take is yes.
Juravich: Kent, we only have one minute left. What is your final takeaway on this, you call it state preemption and why is the state, what's your final take away on why the state's trying to take away local control here?
Scarrett: Well, it's a struggle between a statewide concern and something that a municipality is doing. So when the state preempts, it really separates the people from the local decision makers. And Kyle said that, you know, township government has the highest satisfaction rate. The closer the people are to the government, the more higher satisfaction rate there is. And so when the State separates people from their local decision-makers, that dissatisfaction rate grows. And the control of their community becomes less impactful. So, I think there's all kinds of different reasons why preemptions are introduced, why preemption are passed. Sometimes industry wants them, like maybe Airbnb wants to have more authority, more ability to move in our communities where our communities want them to be in certain places. And they persuade the government to say that you shouldn't give such authority to communities in that sort. So it can come from different avenues, but the bottom line is it separates our local decision makers from their residents. And that really is where the good government happens is when those two are so closely together and working together.
Juravich: We've been talking with Kent Scarrett, executive director of the Ohio Municipal League. Thanks for your time today, Kent.
Scarrett: Thank you so much.
Juravich: And Kyle Brooks, executive director of the Ohio Townships Association. Thanks for joining us, Kyle. Thank you. You've been listening to "All Sides" on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich.