This episode originally aired on Aug. 17, 2026.
What makes an activist? What propels someone to get off the sidelines and get involved?
For decades, 88-year-old actress and activist Jane Fonda has been either a guiding light or a lightning rod, depending on your views.
A new book, written by an Ohio University professor, examines Jane Fonda's life through the lens of protest and movement-building, acting choices and, yes, the volatile Vietnam years.
Marilyn S. Greenwald, Ohio University professor emerita of journalism, joins us on this hour of All Sides to discuss her new book Jane Fonda: There's A Great Deal To Say.
Guest:
- Marilyn S. Greenwald, Ohio University professor emerita of journalism/author, Jane Fonda: There's A Great Deal To Say
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Jane Fonda, the actress and activist, is 88 years old, and she's still making waves. Here she is in June on the Morning Joe show, promoting an event she hosted called Rise Up Sing Out, a concert for the First Amendment. She explains why the time to speak up is now.
Jane Fonda: It's really bad. And it's happening to books, to journalism, as you know well, to museums are being defunded. Arts councils are being de-funded. There's big media mergers that are threatened that will, like a pancake, it'll take an iron and just flatten our cultural discourse.
Juravich: So you may not always agree with her. You may have very strong feelings about her, but Jane Fonda has been an undeniable force for decades, wielding her celebrity and prominence to provoke those in power. A new book examines Fonda's life through the lens of protests, movement building, and how fighting the good fight never gets old. Joining us now is the author of that book and Ohio University Professor Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald. She has written three biographies previously. And her newest book is titled, Jane Fonda. There's a great deal to say. Welcome to All Sides, Marilyn. Well, thanks for having me. So when it comes to your title, yes, Janefonda has a great to say, she does a lot of talking, and there is a great about Jane Fonda, but your title was chosen from a line that she delivered in 1972 after winning the first of her two Oscars. Can you tell us the story behind that line, there's a Great Deal to Say?
Marilyn S. Greenwald: Sure. In 1972, she was kind of at the height of her activism against the war in Vietnam. So she was somewhat of a lightning rod. People either hated her or loved her, even more so than now. And she was in the movie Klute. It was a very famous movie at the time. I mean, it was, she played a call girl, which in itself was controversial, ended up being nominated for an Oscar. And somewhat like today, she was nominated, and she said, well, what am I gonna say if I win? And with Fonda, it was really a dilemma because she was saying, should I talk about the war? Should I mention the war, should I mention, the President of the United States who I've been opposing? She really didn't, and she thought, if I say something, people are gonna get angry. If I don't say something people are, you know, my supporters are gonna be angry. She didn't know what to do. She asked her father, Henry Fonda, and she had an up and down relationship with him over the years. She asked him, and he supported her activism but thought she went too far, frankly. And he said in his own way, because he pretty concise way, just tell him there's a lot to say, you're not gonna do it here or something like that. So she asked a lot of friends, that sounds good, what do you think, what you think? And her friends said, you know, he's got the right idea. That's what you should do. And even in her autobiography, she describes, even driving to the Oscar, she still wasn't sure what she was going to say.
Greenwald: And I really should say something against the war, you know, I really should. Well, anyway, she, she wins. And she said, I might not even win. So it's a moot point. She wins and gets up there and says exactly that there's, there's a great deal to say, I'm not going to say it now. And it was literally one sentence. And that was that, and she was in this kind of play. I don't want to say plain, but compared to what people wear at the Oscars now, just, just kind of plain dress, you know, her hair was plain, not a lot of jewelry. And she did that on purpose because she said, these are terrible times. I can't imagine myself getting dressed up for this.
Juravich: So that's where it came from. So by saying there's a great deal to say, she said a lot, but at the same time didn't say it on this stage where she might have been villainized for saying it in this setting. I mean, actors and actresses when they win now say all kinds of things, but back then it wasn't as common, right?
Greenwald: Right, right, and Vanessa Redgrave said something around that time and was widely vilified. So it was controversial. She writes in her autobiographies, you could almost hear an audible sigh of relief as I walked off the stage, so she knew. All the Oscar TV producers were like.
Juravich: Please don't do anything. I don't think the audience wanted her to do anything, and so...
Greenwald: And so they were they were pretty
Juravich: I see. Well, your book details the evolution of her activism from its start giving a fuller account of the Vietnam years and how Fonda wove together her acting and activism. So I wanted to bring up the audio that I just played in the introduction. Her roots of her activism began in the 70s, but the same issues are playing out today. We have the war in Iran, we have a divided economy or a divided country, we have all these economic woes. What do you think whenever? You see Jane Fonda today as the activist versus Jane Fanda of the 70s activists. What do you think of those two different but same Jane Fondas?
Greenwald: There are a lot of parallels and when I started writing this book or getting information for it what was it it's been four or five years you kind of saw Jane a little bit but not a lot you know and now let's we see her all the time and you mentioned morning Joe she's been on some of the late night shows and and that's relatively new for the for the time I mean it wasn't like that three or four or 5 years ago and part of that is she does worry about what's happening now. She... Really worries about free speech. I would say most of her activism now, or at least before now, three years ago, four years ago focused on environmentalism. That's really her top, I think, worry. But then when things started happening with Jimmy Kimmel and First Amendment and the FCC, she started worrying about free-speech, First Amendment. And that's It's kind of natural for her, but... It really harkens back to her father. Her father, Henry Fonda, in 1947, was one of many actors and actresses who formed something called the Committee for the First Amendment. And that was during the HUIC, the hearings, the committee hearings when they were probing communism into the motion picture industry. That's what that was. People people say it's it's McCarthyism which it is it's a little bit of a shade of difference but but that's essentially what it was in 1947 and she formed a committee same name you know Committee for the First Amendment got a couple I think it's couple hundred entertainers performers to join so this not only you know says something about we're losing our First Amendment rights she also uses it. This happened before, we fought against it before, my father fought against before, and we're doing it again. So it kind of has a double whammy, I think, for her.
Juravich: Wanted to go back some decades, her awakening to like what made her want to start speaking up on issues all those years ago. And really a part of it was that she lived in France for a period of time surrounded by artists and creative types. So was that did that like form her opinions and help her was that she grew up basically in France?
Greenwald: Yeah, that's really where it happened. I mean, there's a lot of irony here. Fonda, I don't remember the other, I think she was in her early 20s. She was on, she was Miss Army recruiting. That she- Oh, like a pageant? No, it was like a billboard and a poster. I think it was a poster to get people to recruit, so there's irony for you. And so she, up until she, I would say mid-60s, so she was probably late 20s, she was in her late 20's, and she didn't know what she was gonna do. She was at Vassar, she lasted two years, she didn't like Vassars, she dropped out. She kinda wanted to be an actor, she wasn't sure, and she moved to France, to Paris, and I don't know if she met him first or met him after she moved, but Roger Vadim, he was a French New Wave director. She met him. He was much older than she was. Brigitte Bardot was one of his wives. She ends up marrying him. She's like his third wife or something. But he wasn't very much into politics either. However, she gets pregnant and she has problems with the pregnancy and the doctor says, you have to stay in bed for three months or stay home. And she stays home and she sees these protests for the Vietnam War. On her television. She's like, what is this? And then Vadim's friends, some of his actor friends were very much involved in the anti-war movement. She starts talking to them, Simone Signore, if you know that name as an actor. And they're like, this is terrible. We're in this war and we shouldn't be in this War. Look what's going on. And then something catches on with her and she said in her, she said in her autobiography, it might be maybe because she was pregnant and her life started changing, but she was bedridden, she was at home for three months. Otherwise, I don't think she would have even seen what was on television. And the combination of watching these people demonstrate and talking to these kind of left-wing friends, something just clicked in her. And it just, and then one of her friends said, I-I-I can, you know, you should talk to a friend of mine who is a veteran and he can tell you all these terrible things that happen. And she did, and she talked to him and she started getting involved with veterans. And of course, she gets divorced, I mean, it was never a great marriage. Then she moves back, I think in 1969 or thereabouts, she moves to Hollywood. And she's an activist by then. I mean that's over. That's what she does now.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking with author and Ohio University Professor Emerita Marilyn Greenwald. And her new book is titled Jane Fonda. There's a great deal to say. Fonda is often described as an anti-war protester, which she was, as we were just talking about, but that's only a fraction of her focus. But that seems to overshadow her other work. I mean, why do you think that is, that her speaking out and being a protester for whether it's war or climate change or the First Amendment, people think of her as the activist first and the actress second sometimes. Why is that? Well,
Greenwald: I'll tell the story and try to condense it. It all gets back to what some people might remember, and I know they remember it today, a lot of people, Hanoi Jane. She's still known, and you might say, well, why do people call her Hanoian Jane? The Vietnam War has been over for many, many decades. And she's still Hanoia Jane to many people. Well, what happened was, in 1972, She was really active in the movement. She met veterans. This was kind of, you know, much of her life protesting against the war. And also she felt the mistreatment of veterans. She was very much a veterans advocate. So she decides to go to Vietnam, to North Vietnam. Now she wasn't the only one. Many, many people had visited North Vietnam during the war, so that was not unusual. I mean, I'm not saying for tourism, but public officials and you know. People. And so she went to, she was invited, I think by the North Vietnam government. She went there for a couple of reasons to see what was going on, but two reasons mainly. She wanted to give letters to prisoners of war. There were a handful of prisoners of more Americans, and she went to their relatives and said, I'm going, I'll hand hand letters to them.
Juravich: Was it was it more like the government in North Vietnam would let this actress come as opposed to like a government official So she she had an in because she was famous
Greenwald: Well, I think they government officials did come also particularly, you know, they they did but yeah I think it wasn't just you or I could have gone there You did have to kind of be somebody because they had okay But but it wasn't it wasn't like only four people one I mean it was I don't know the number but it had to be 20 30 40 people over a couple years So she was gonna give them letters from their family But she also was adamant because she said that the American soldiers who were bombing They didn't realize what they were doing, but they were bombing rice paddies, and by bombing the rice paddy in North Vietnam, number one, they were causing flooding, just awful flooding, and number two, they we're eliminating the food source. So they were not just getting rid of their food, the flooding was terrible, they were eliminating their homes. And the fondest thing was these, these. Americans don't realize they're doing that they're being told to bomb their bombing They if they realized they were killing civilians by doing this they wouldn't do it So she made some public, you know, she gave some talks about this Which you can imagine the Nixon government was not real pleased about that. They'd already been following her That's another story. Yeah, I had already been falling at this point and so That's why she went there. So she's touring the country. And of course, they're being very nice to her. It's a North Vietnam government. They're like, hey, we got somebody here. We're gonna show her that we're not all that bad. So they're touring. And then they come to this, I don't know if it was a military installment, but there was this big Vietnamese gun that you could sit on. All right. And they were showing her this. And they said, oh, sit on the gun. And she's, oh okay. She sits on thegun. There were pictures snapped. In the rest of history. It's a kind of an iconic picture now. It got, you know, this was before the internet, but as I say in the book, it went viral. You know, wire services all over the country, all over world. This is, she's sympathetic, look at, she's sympathetic to the North Vietnamese, she's a traitor, Hanoi Jane, and some, I don't know who started that name, but it still exists.
Juravich: But she has talked about that time in North Vietnam. She's apologized for parts of it, but not for everything she said and did. Tell me about her reflection on it all these years later.
Greenwald: Two main things number one. She has apologized for getting on that weapon right many many pictures She regrets yes, and she should not have gotten on that weapons She she says I am not apologizing for going over to North Vietnam. That was the right thing to do Getting on the weapon. It was a mistake and in interviews all the time She said this that was the I will regret that till the day I die Is what she has said it was wrong of me people around her, it was just a ha-ha, we're celebrating a little bit, oh, get on that, and she did, and she said, as soon as I saw flash, you know, like flash bulbs, the camera, she said I knew right away, I shouldn't have done this. And that's what it is, so she's apologized. It's interesting because in the book, I write about her first apology, which is on Barbara Walters, the Barbara Walter Show, and it was a big deal. She's going on Barbara Walter's to apologize, and she did. And I think Jane thought that this is gonna be the end of it, all right. Well, it wasn't. And then it never went away, yeah. And she thinks she was naive. You know, in interviews now, she says, I was naive, I'm not saying I was right. I was wrong, I wrong, I was young, I naive, and I shouldn't have done it.
Juravich: Coming up, we're gonna talk about how Jane Fonda has continued to be a force well into her 80s. We are talking with author and Ohio University Professor Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald, and we'll be back after the break. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host Amy Juravich. We're talking this hour about actress and activist Jane Fonda. Here she is in this past summer responding to a question about her longevity from an E News reporter.
Jane Fonda: I wake up saying, thank you, that I'm still here and I'm healthy. If you had told me when I was 30 that I would be alive and active at 88, I would have said, oh, you need your head examined.
Juravich: You may not always agree with her. You may have very strong feelings about her, but Jane Fonda has been an undeniable force for decades. A new book examines Fonda's life through the lens of her activism and how fighting the good fight never gets old. Still with us is author and Ohio University Professor Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald, and her new book is titled, Jane Fond, There's a Great Deal to Say. Thanks again for being here with us, Marilyn. Oh, thank you. So it's sometimes hard to believe that Jane Fonda is 88. I did a double take whenever I looked up her age. You write about her high energy personality, how she is constantly pushing forward on her causes while set on still acting as well. What did you come to understand about her energy and her drive? Where does that come from?
Greenwald: Wow you know a couple things first of all there was a great quote I don't know where I got it but it was from Michael Douglas who acted with her in the "China Syndrome" and he said she does more in a day than I do in a week and I mean I think that's that's really probably true even on film sets some it particularly in the 70s she would um you know do the acting or do whatever she has has to do and if if she had 20 minutes you know not doing anything. She'd make calls, she'd run and make calls. So she was always active. You know what I think it is? She is a true activist. And there's a couple reasons that I decided to write the book. One of them was because she had just left her papers to Smith College in an archive, which really was one reason I wrote it. But another reason that I got interested in it was I'm interested in activists. You know, What makes people? Spend 99% of their life on a cause, you know and true activists do that They don't just spend you know, 50% or they don't do something for a couple years and then then give it up I did a book about a animal activist Cleveland Amory and he gave up a lucrative career Writing and even on a stint on the Today Show for animal rights He just you know that's what he did animal rights his and gave up, you, know a career for it So I'm interested in activists and what makes them tick. And the thing about Fonda is she is a true activist. She isn't somebody who says, you know, I want this presidential candidate to win, I'm gonna really push for this person. No, it is decades and decades. And one thing, and she notes this in her autobiography, she got so into it in the late 70s that she said she was in Detroit. For something, and she met a lot of, and knew a lot of activists there, and one that she respected, he's not a household name or a well-known activist, she said, I've decided I'm gonna give up acting. I just have to be an advocate and do that, you know, 24 hours a day. And he said to her, are you crazy? You have this platform as Jane Fonda. We have a lot activists, we don't have anybody. Who could get a crowd of 500 people with five hours notice. And she said that, it just went off in her head like, well, there you go.
Juravich: Yeah, you got it. So she decided she can be both and she needed to be both. So you you alluded to this I was curious what made you interested in writing a book about Jane Fonda I mean, you know, there's lots of people in the world lots of you write books about but Knowing about how much of her life has been documented. She has the autobiography What made you think you could bring something new to it? That's a great question
Greenwald: because I asked myself and I asked a lot of my friends that what happened was in a nutshell I think it was when COVID started you know right at the beginning and I had done research at a pretty well-known women's studies archive at Smith College's Sophia Smith collection. I'd done research there before so I got their newsletter just you know because and I was reading their newsletter and it wasn't even in the first page but in the second or third page it said we we just got Jane Fonda's personal papers you know and they didn't even kind of make a big deal out of it they go wow okay i mean they have oh they have Gloria Steinem they have many many famous people there so i guess i understand that but so i'm thinking this is interesting you know and i i kind of looked into it but it was rough because everything was closed it was it was during covid so they got them they hadn't organized them yet i had no idea what it was So one thing led to another, I'm doing a little more research. They're posting some things online at Smith, and it looks like, okay, there's a lot here. I don't know what it is. And I'm thinking, it's probably not her movie stuff because that's at the Oscar Archive in Los Angeles. That's a huge archive. So I'm think, I don't know what's there, but this sounds interesting. But then I thought what you just said. I said, I do not wanna do another biography of Jane Fonda. She did a great autobiography. No one's gonna match that. There have been at least three or four written about her. I wasn't interested in that. And I was talking to a friend, and at this point I was getting a little bit, knowing a little more about what was in the archive, but not much. And a good friend of mine, I'm batting things back and forth, I've done research with him before, and I said, this is right there, I don't know what to do about it. And he's talking, he goes, why has she been Hanoi Jane for 50 years? You know, and we're talking, and I go, enough already. You know, why has she, she didn't murder anybody. She didn't stand trial for anything. And there's just a lot of people who still hate her. I mean, really despise her. And I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm just saying they do. And then we batted around some things and I said, there, maybe I can look into why is Jane Fonda still Hanoi Jane? To so many people. And then we started talking about her activism. And then things started gelling a little bit. But I agree with you, if I didn't have another angle, I don't think I could have done it or wanted to do it.
Juravich: Did she know you were working on the book? Did she cooperate? Did you try to contact her or anything like that? Yes.
Greenwald: We did I did try to contact her and at the beginning I thought well She's not gonna do it and even my editor at the press had contacted her She's probably not gonna. Do it, but contact her, and I actually Actually, thanks to a former student of mine who works at a media outlet I actually did get a couple names because it's hard even getting names for these people to contact and I contacted her people she has people on the East Coast in the West Coast I contacted our East Coast people because they're more the environmental people. And I actually got a reply, and I was stunned. And they said, well, so tell us more about this, what you're working on. I said, it's their archive. She donated the archive, you know, herself. That's what I'm working with. And then they sent me another email, and they said well, I don't even remember, but I was like, well we don't wanna be out of line, but can we ask you a little bit more about this book? You know, and they were very polite. And I said I'm absolutely happy to tell you about it. You know and I wrote some things. And at this point I think, God, wouldn't that be great? Maybe I can talk to her. And then I get an email, ah, we can't make this work. So that was unfortunate. I sent them a book, though, so. Did you hear back after it's come out? No, I sent, it's been maybe a month or two I sent her people a book. So I don't know.
Juravich: Okay, well, you never know you follow along with interviews that she does to see if she mentions it as a casual aside, right? No, you don't
Greenwald: You know, you don't know. I mean, I'm not saying she's going to contact me, but, you know, fond of somebody who would. You know there were letters that she wrote to veterans that were in her archive because veterans would write her and she would respond. I mean she has copies of letters that that she that she wrote to Veterans and a couple of them, some didn't like her, some most did like her. Most of the letters she kept they were they said I didn't like you for you know when I was a soldier, but now I understand. Anyway, a couple of them said, well, I live in wherever, in Birmingham, Alabama, if you're ever there. And I don't know if she ever did, but she'd respond, she goes, you know, if I'm ever there, I will look you up. Knowing her, she may have, you now. Yeah.
Juravich: Yeah, and she would remember this, I'm sure. Yes. So it was interesting the way you just said that, the letters she kept. So maybe she got a lot of letters that weren't so nice.
Greenwald: You don't know what you don't know, but she kept a lot of them. There had to be a hundred, hundred fifty letters from veterans in her in her archive.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about a new book, Jane Fonda. There's a great deal to say. And we're talking with author and Ohio University Professor Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald. So I had missed this somewhere along the way, but Jane Fondas spent her 82nd birthday in 2019 in jail from being arrested during the so-called Fire Drill Fridays, which was a climate change protest. She helped Greenpeace USA organize it. It was in Washington, D.C. She was arrested with some other famous actors like Ted Danson, Sam Watterson, a few other names. How did I miss this? It was in 2019, I feel like I had no idea it had happened and I looked it up and I was like, I wanna use the phrase I've slept since then. I don't remember it maybe, like tell me about this. Yeah, I mean this was an.
Greenwald: Environment group that she that she had founded and And they went and I don't even remember I mean they went to Washington Periodically and they demonstrated and of course a couple times they got arrested I don't think she spent a night in jail at that point and she was in her 80s But it was it was mostly for the publicity. I mean, I think that's fine But you know, it got some coverage and you say you missed it. It didn't get quite the coverage it might have. It certainly didn't get the coverage. I think her committee for the First Amendment formation got a lot of coverage. It got much less coverage than that. But she also brought some of her friends who were actors. She really does believe that, as that person told her in Detroit, you have a name, you can get people. So that's what that was all about.
Juravich: It's not every day that an 82-year-old famous actress who's like on TV and in movies gets arrested though, so yeah.
Do you, do you know why was it that they wanted them to like disperse and they wouldn't or something?
Greenwald: Right. It had something to do, I think. I want to say, I shouldn't say because I don't know, but illegal assembly. Yeah, yeah. It was a minor charge. But, you know, to be honest, I think she didn't feel that President Trump had done a lot of what he's doing now. And I think so the First Amendment, even though she of course, an advocate of it, it didn't have the importance that it does now, back then.
Juravich: And at the time, when she was 82, she told People magazine that she went out there and she protested because maybe other people sitting on the sidelines would quote, would go. And she said, quote, God, if I can do it, I guess anyone can. Right. So.
Greenwald: Yeah, I mean this is one of Fonda's mantras has been and I and she this was during protests for the Vietnam War too. If people only knew what was going on they would protest. She said this you know it was so controversial when she went to North Vietnam and she said one of the reasons I did this is to try to to publicize what's going on there and the bombing of these dikes and the killing of. Civilians and I really do believe if American citizens knew what was going on and they knew the truth, they would hate it and they would protest also. This is a continuing theme I think in her life. In fact, she would go on these, some people might remember the "Phil Donahue show" and the "Dick Cavett show" way back in the 70s and 80s and they were talk shows but They were audiences. That would ask questions. So Jane would be there, and some of them were nasty questions. It was not always audiences that loved her. And I saw tapes of these, and sometimes someone would go, how could you do this? You hate your country, you're a traitor, and you're a traitor and a liar. And she would very calmly, she would never lose her cool. I remember thinking, gosh, if that was me, I think I would yell back. She never lost cool. She said, people are being lied to. If they only knew the truth, they would agree with what I'm saying. And very cool. She was just a real cool customer on those shows.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. Coming up, we're gonna talk about Jane Fonda's most recent work on TV, and we'll also discuss those famous exercise videos. I'm not gonna ignore those. We are talking with author and Ohio University Professor Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald, and we will talk more after the break. That's when All Sids continues on 89, 7 NPR news.
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. In a 2022 interview on "CBS Sunday morning," Jane Fonda was asked about her legacy.
Jane Fonda: I just, I don't think that my career as an actor is as important in the world as my work as an activist and I just like most of us, you know, I would like to feel that somehow in my life I've helped to make things better on different levels, you know.
Juravich: In that same interview, she was there with her Grace and Frankie co-star, Lily Tomlin, and they also were asked to talk about female friendship. And both of them agreed that such friendships are not only life-saving, but life- sustaining. Still with us is author and Ohio University Professor Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald, and her book is titled Jane Fonda. There's a great deal to say. Thanks again for being with us today, Marilyn. Oh, thanks. So Jane Funda, in both her acting and activism, has valued friendship and the importance of collaboration. So what struck you, as you were doing this deep dive into her life, even like that interview we were talking about from "CBS Sunday morning," if you go back and find it, she and Lily Tomlin have a lovely conversation about friendship. So tell me about this importance of collaboration and friendship to her.
Greenwald: This started well not well not in the late 60s probably the early 70s when she started doing what she calls serious films films that in some ways might reflect her you know cultural views and in the late 60's people probably a lot of people might know the film "Barbarella" which she plays this was in the Late 60s it was made in with her with her husband, Roger Vadim, in France. And it was just a fluffy, she's half naked in most of the movie, it's just this fluffy thing. And some of the films, she did three or four films in the late 60s, and they were just kind of either comedies or they were very light. She did an extremely serious, intense film in, I think it was 69, in the US. "They shoot horses, don't they?" If you've ever seen this film, it was very intense. It's kind of about how. Sad capitalism can be and how it can kill people. That's kind of a nutshell. But the difference is when she made this film, it was with a director called Sidney Pollock, and they were both young at the time. And Sidney pollock asked her, what do you think about this scene? Or what do think about this? Well, how about the casting? Do you think we should cast so and so for this? And she had this eureka moment. He's Are you asking me? He's asking some fluffy actor about the details of the film. And that was kind of another Eureka moment for her because she felt, I'm part of a team. I'm not just some actress paid X amount to recite lines. So he was a real kind of motivating factor, Sydney Pollock. He's done many, many movies since then. And so the next movie she made, "Clute," which we talked about. Same thing, the director, Alan J. Pakula, another famous director, said, hey, I want your input on this, you know, and asked her serious questions about how the film, different aspects of the film. So she learned about collaboration, and I'm not saying she didn't collaborate in her earlier films, but she was just a hired, she felt she was a hired actor then. She felt like she was member of a team in Clue. And then, of course, she formed her own production company where she not only was a member of a team, she and her partner were the people directing it. And she is the first to say in interviews, I came to feminism late. I didn't know what feminism was. And I think it was during "They Shoot Horses" and "Clute." That's when she got a lot of female friends. And she got got a a lot female friends who were activists, also. So, you know, yes. And then, of course, Lily Tomlin, who, you know, those two, you know, are great. They're best friends. They...
Juravich: Yeah, she's active and outspoken in her 80s, and she's starring in a Netflix series that features two women in their 70s. Has she done work more recently to combat ageism? I mean, has she spoken out about the fact that she's still working at 88? Oh, yeah.
Greenwald: Oh, yes. In fact, if you see her on some of these talk shows, that's what she talks about. She's leaning toward that. And she says things like, you know, ageism, aging gets a bad name. If you live to be old, you're very lucky. That's her thing. You're lucky. You are in your 80s, you are lucky. You're in your 90s, and you're lucky, and she also talks about, as you can imagine, you're not decrepit. I mean, just... There's a stereotype of older people as being decrepit and in poor physical shape. Most people aren't. They might have some illnesses, but they're still going and that's wrong to think that anybody over the age of whatever is sick and doesn't move around. So and she might have a team.
Juravich: With her to help her maybe look a little less decrepit. But anyway. We should all have that team. All right, well, I do want to talk about her famous exercise videos, because we can't talk about Jane Fonda and not mention those. But what I didn't know is that the endeavor grew out of a need to raise money, because husband number two, Tom Hayden, had political aspirations, and getting into politics is expensive. So tell me how she went from being known as an actress and an activist to suddenly being the exercise queen.
Greenwald: You know that was a fluke She talks about this in her Autobiography and it's actually kind of funny she and Tom Hayden who you say what's running for office He actually did serve on the California. What was the what is the California State Senate? I'm not sure that's its name, but that's what it is. So he needed money and so They're thinking we have to oh wait. I want to interrupt myself real quickly. I'm her her son people interview her son and he's very funny about his mother and her earning money and one of his what something he said in a speech was something like my first five birthdays were fundraisers which I thought was very funny but her life was fundraising with with Tom Hayden so they decide we got to get something quick that's gonna get us money quick we go in and out you know what can it be and they're talking and they are going maybe we get higher car mechanics and get a garage and like fix cars, you know? Fix cars, okay. And then they were saying, well maybe we should open a restaurant. You know, I mean we don't have to keep it forever, but, and it was her stepmother who was married to Henry Fonda said, because she said, they're talking to each other and are like, and Jane's like, all I know how to do is be an activist and act. That's all I knew how to to do. And her step mother said, Well, you sure know how to exercise. Because she did, she took ballet and exercised every day of her life. People don't know that, but forever, since she was in her 20s. She's, well, you should know how exercise. And then her stepmother said, you know, there's this group of women in Beverly Hills and they exercise to music a couple times a week and Jean's like, what's that? Because aerobics wasn't known then, or it was just starting. So her stepmother said, go and look at them. They like each other, they talk, they talk about their families, they exercise. And Jane went and looked and she said, these women have a great time and they feel better about themselves, they feel about their bodies. One thing led to another. She opened a studio and now she was the one who taught and had the women come. It was so popular then she started her videos. I mean these videos, I don't even remember, but they were like the most successful videos. Ever the first couple of years. I think they still may be actually. They've hit many records that I don't think have been broken. It was a fluky thing. Thank goodness that they didn't open a garage.
Juravich: Yeah, could you imagine? I mean, I can definitely like the name Fonda with car fixing sounds appropriate But I yeah, but if we never had those exercise videos, what would the world be? This is all sides on 89 7 NPR news We're talking about the new book Jane Fonda. There's a great deal to say we're talking with author and Ohio University Professor, America Marilyn Greenwald Well, speaking of her being outspoken, we talked about the ageism, but also, I guess, related to the exercise videos. She's also been outspoke about her appearance, her weight, bulimia. She had her hair go gray for the TV show, Grace and Frankie. Can you talk to me about her speaking out about her apperance, and you know, you connect it with her feminism thing. Yeah.
Greenwald: Yeah. In fact, you know, when I read her autobiography, which I read many times just, you know, in writing the book, I give her credit. She's very candid about an eating disorder, actually several eating disorders, I think that she had for about 20, 25 years. And bulimia, I think she was anorexic. She took diet pills for a while. And she, I I think she was in her 40s when she finally gave it up. And And she said, you know, I was miserable. It was hard to give up, but I did. And I look back and I think I was so miserable, so obsessed with food, and she said that's why she's writing about it. She actually in her exercise books, you now she has exercise books also, she writes at length about it, and my hat's off to her for that because a lot of people wouldn't do that or they'd mention it very quickly and move on. And so she doesn't, but, but. Yes, it does equate with feminism because she believes that women's, you know, the obsession with looks, you men don't have it per se, but women do. You have to be thin. You have be beautiful. And she said this is just so destructive and it's kind of a way of life with many women and it sometimes passed down. It is kind of part of what she calls quote unquote feminism and and she's the first to say I'm not sure what feminism is you know I have my own definition of feminism and there's no real definition of it but she said the the obsession with looks is part of that and if we could get away from that and and she I think she's right about that I mean you know when she talks about the aerobic studio she said to women it's not just that they're exercising and getting thinner maybe the camaraderie, you know, they talk to each other. It goes back to the friendships. Yeah, and so it's the feminism slash friendship slash collaboration, you now, it's all kind of one with.
Juravich: Well, I'd be remiss before we run out of time to not talk a little bit more about the three husbands and what they brought to her life. We already talked about two of them, but then there's the third. Her third husband, Ted Turner, created CNN, was a billionaire. What about that marriage? How was it similar and different to her others? How did the union with Ted Turner impact her activism? Tell me a little about the Ted Turner years.
Greenwald: Yeah, I mean when Ted was kind of crazy, we won't go into Ted, that's a different book. Yeah, yeah, and Ted wanted attention to himself. You'd think that Ted Turner would be the last person to marry Jane Fonda, who's an internationally known person, but shortly after she got divorced from Tom Hayden, it was a 15-year marriage and it was terrible divorce and she was devastated and that's another story. Jane found to be devastated is something because she doing this research. She's enormously strong mentally I'm reading her out about her thinking Wow She's like the strongest person I've ever read about but she was devastated at the divorce from Hayden So she's divorced for a month or so and Turner calls her. Let's go Okay, and she says like you crazy. I just anyway she ends up going out with him and you'd think it was this weird relationship She ends up falling in love with him, mainly because they both loved the outdoors. They loved the outdoor, they were both First Amendment people, obviously he founded CNN. He had several ranches out west that she loved. In fact, she didn't act for ten years when she was married to him. This is someone who did a couple movies a year, so didn't for ten year. And they really had a lot in common, more than you might think, and it was mostly their love of the outdoors. He taught her about philanthropy. She moved to Atlanta when she was married to him, because he's from Atlanta, and she founded a couple of philanthropic organizations, and so she moved a little bit more toward philanthropy with him. And, you know, she jokes in every interview. She says, he was my favorite husband, and he's my favorite. Of course, he was the only one still alive, you know, because the other two, I think Hayden died in 2016, and Vadim died decades ago. So, yeah, it's just that I think you've got two people who really like the limelight, and so then you're gonna have a problem, so it didn't last. But she speaks very, even before he died even, she spoke very highly of him.
Juravich: I, it struck me, I mean, just backing up to some of the early coverage of her early protests whenever she kind of just started being an activist. It's interesting how women were characterized back then versus now. There's some similarities, but and some differences. A life magazine that ran at the time had a headline and the headline read, nag, nag, nag. Jane Fonda has become a nonstop activist. And most of the reporters covering her at the times were male and they used words like shrill and sour to describe her. I mean, how does she talk about that now when, you know, people do that? I mean I'm sure I'm sure some people still call her a nag, nag, but it's different now.
Greenwald: Yeah, and I know exactly the article you're talking about. Yeah, you know, who knows? I do think some of us, because she's a woman, you never know. I mean, if she did what she did, she would man would they say that? Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But Jane is, you can imagine, very smart, I think, but also has a good sense of humor. And one thing that was a target, people's, she has no sense of humors, back in the 70s and 80s. She's so sour, she's no sense humor. That's wrong. She actually is funny and she is quick, but I think that's a stereotype. You know, the militant feminists, they're this, they're that, they have no sense of humor. And she does. In fact, won't get into this without time, but in coming home, she was creating a character and I was reading transcripts of a movie meeting and she says, well, she should be this, she should this, and she should have a very sly sense of humor that maybe people don't think she has, but she does, I'm reading that, that's her. Yeah, you know, maybe people don't think she does but she does and you know Let's face it if you're smart and quick you probably do have a good sense of humor and she was smart She is smart and quix. So but anyway, but yes, those were leveled against her in headlines in stories I think it's just a stereotypical thing
Juravich: Before we run out of time, how did researching and writing this book shape your impression of Jane Fonda? Both the actor, the activist, I mean, did it change how you saw her at all?
Greenwald: I didn't know that much about her, to be honest. I liked her films. I will tell you, and I've done other biographies of, I've did a couple biographied of Strong Women. She is so strong mentally. I mean, I'm reading about it like, wow, how do you not just break down, or what I would do, I wouldn't break down. I would go, I am not doing this anymore. I mean I would just say, you know what? I can't take this anymore, I've don. Or you know other people would cry either she I she's like the strongest person that I've ever heard about her I have not met her but strongest person. I think I would have ever met. Hmm. What are you hoping readers take away from your book? You know, I I think just to get rid of the stereotype of her I mean, I'm not saying if you don't like her you don't like her. I mean I am But I think I would like people to see that she's multidimensional, that she is not just a one-dimensional, because if you really like or really don't like her, I think you think of her as one.
Juravich: So maybe, do you hope that someone will stop calling her Hanoi Jane? Well, you know, I think it's kind of silly, to be honest. Well, at this point, yeah. Well, at this point, yeah.
Greenwald: But if you want to do it, you know, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and do it. I just think it's kind of odd after all these decades.
Juravich: Well, we have been talking about the book Jane Fonda. There's a great deal to say. And the author and Ohio University professor, Emerita, Marilyn Greenwald, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, thanks. Had fun. Yes, and again, the book is Jane Funda. There's A Great Deal to Say. You've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. And I want to say thanks to the All Side staff, producers Marcus Charleston and Erin Esmott Rabinowitz. Thank you to Erin for producing the show today. Student producers Iza Huck and Brianna Fortunet, and our all-sides student producer from Denison University is Ellen Hansen. Board operation by Chris Johnston and Trey Hayes, video production by the Ohio Channel. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News.