There isn't anything much better than eating and cooking with the produce you grew in your backyard.
Tomatoes, cucumbers, basil and strawberries are all things that Ohio gardeners have planted. But with gardening comes a lot of un-answered questions.
Is what you grew in your backyard safe from the parasite causing stomach distress? How can you keep deer from eating your entire garden? How often should you be watering with the ever-changing heat extremes?
Plus, native gardening has grown from a niche practice to a mainstream trend.
What native plants should you add to your yard to attract bees and butterflies and help the environment?
Gardening experts will answer your questions on this hour of All Sides.
Guests:
- Mike Hogan, extension educator/associate professor of agriculture and natural resources, Ohio State University
- Deb Knapke, author/educator/Ohio's Garden Sage
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Gardening is a hobby where you can't always follow an instruction manual. With the temperature fluctuating and rain being unpredictable, it's nearly impossible to know truly how to make your harvest fruitful in an exact way. Plus the world will throw you a curve ball from time to time like wildfire smoke and a parasite in the lettuce. But we have two guests today who can help make your garden successful, or at least they're gonna try to make sense of it all.
Here to answer some gardening questions, we have Mike Hogan, an Extension Educator and Associate Professor of Agriculture and Natural Resources at Ohio State University. Welcome back to the show, Mike. Thank you. And also with us is Deb Knapke, author, educator, and Ohio's Garden Sage. Welcome back, Deb. Nice to be here.
So by now, everyone has heard of the unfortunate parasite that's plaguing our leafy greens. Some people have even stopped eating vegetables and fruits altogether as a precaution. Mike, I saw that the OSU Extension Office posted on Facebook about this and wanted to offer some information. So what are you telling people about their lettuce? Like, can they eat it?
Mike Hogan: Absolutely, I think the main message that we were hearing particularly from our food science folks and our nutrition folks is Ceasing to consume fresh fruits and vegetables fruits and Vegetables in general was probably not a great idea You know from a health perspective And that we did have some questions from folks whether the lettuce in their garden or other crops Were susceptible to this parasite? And basically the answer is the risk is incredibly minor Specifically from this particular, you know foodborne illness
And we've been for the past probably 10 years or so here in Columbus and other urban areas in Ohio, we've developed a program called GAPS, Good Agricultural Practices for Urban Growers, for gardeners and even vegetable growers in urban farms and other areas that helps them understand, identify and minimize the risks from microbes that are common to fruits and vegetables, to growing, to marketing, to transporting those. We've also worked with farmers market managers to help them understand how they can work with growers to make sure that that the food Is safe and probably the biggest Pinch point for most folks in an urban area and there are some really different risks of growing food in an Urban area compared to more conventional rural production systems of vegetables and fruits But the most common source of contamination is typically water
And so we really hit that hard with gardeners and urban growers to Make sure that they are using only potable water not just to grow food crops, but to when they harvest, when they wash, when they watch their hands, when they washed garden tools, to make sure that we're only using potable water, never using surface water. Rainwater can also be questionable. We like to harvest rainwater. We can cut down on the cost of irrigation by harvesting rainwater, but whatever's on the roof will end up in the rain barrel. And so if there's birds up there, you know what you're gonna have if you have birds.
Juravich: So use your rain barrel water maybe for the rest of your yard and not the eating part.
Hogan: Water your box, wood your lilacs, water the lawn during droughts, but maybe, or if you're going to use that water, we do recommend for food crops, sanitizing it before we use it for irrigation.
Juravich: Deb, when you keep hearing all the news about cyclospora, this parasite being in the lettuce, I mean, what does that make you think? Does that make worry for people's lettuce, or how worried do you get?
Deb Knapke: Um, not especially for the home gardener or the farm markets or whatever. They are really aware of these issues. Now you may have a newbie who may be not be aware of it, but I don't know where the infection came from, where the paracet came from. But it's not in my lettuce, in my garden, you know, it's, it not in. Uh, we have been buying our lettuce and our greens still at the farmer's market and been eating it and we've been fine. I, there's a specific point of infection, what that is. Maybe we'll find it, maybe we won't, but it, it's not in our gardens.
Juravich: Do you know, Mike, if this parasite is, like, always around but we're just hearing about it more now? Is it a common thing?
Hogan: It is fairly common, and public health officials say that it's common every season for folks to get the cyclosporiasis. What is different now is the level of impact and infection. It is a very common organism. It is only in humans. It is typically spread through water or exposure to feces, and so it's not uncommon. Um, you know, for, for it to get from, uh, into the environment, into the soil and onto, um, um plants. Um, but just the, the level of impact is, is what is different this year.
Juravich: So Deb, for those avoiding lettuce right now, what would you recommend? Maybe just trying to, they're too late to grow their own maybe, but they could go to the farmers market instead of buying at the grocery store. Is that what you'd recommend?
Knapke: I would, but you know, it's really not too late because it's time to start seeding for your fall crops. We are at August 3rd and usually August 15th is when I sow my fall lettuce seeds. I already have some kale coming up, some volunteer kale from plants that I grew in the spring and I let some seed just to see what would happen. And I already had a crop of kale that's about 10 inches tall. Oh, so. Um, and something I'd like to bring up, and I'm glad you brought it up, Mike, is that it is a human parasite. So if you're using horse manure, cow manure, chicken manure, you're not going to have this parasite. So if your using that in your gardens.
Hogan: Now there are other concerns with manure. We've covered that before, the agricultural practices is how to use those manures. It's best if we completely compost them, not compost them in the garden, not close to the garden where rainwater could have an impact if there's slope. But yeah, for the most part, I think Deb's hit the nail on the head. Urban growers, smaller growers, gardeners, maybe don't sell their produce, but we always think about, You know. Years ago when we started teaching good agricultural practices to farmers, to vegetable growers here in Ohio, the question was, do we really need to share this with home gardeners? Home gardeners typically grow food for themselves. Maybe they share it with their family or their neighbor, but when you think about it, a lot more folks are growing food for others now. We have a lot of master gardeners who grow a lot food to donate to food pantries for food insecurity. So it's really important that no matter how big of a grower you are, that you follow some some really best practices to minimize the potential risk from foodborne illness. About 25% of all foodborne illnesses in the United States can be traced back to produce. Everybody thinks of more hazardous foods, foods that spoil quickly, milk-based foods, maybe meats, things like that. But nearly a quarter of all foodborne sickness comes from produce, fruits and vegetables.
Juravich: All right, so tell me how you both wash your lettuce. Tell me the method that you, I have a salad spinner, but tell me what you use, Dev. How do you wash your lettuces?
Knapke: So, yes, salad spinner. I've done that in the past. We have a well on our property, and so I will sometimes swish in the softened water and then rinse in the hard water. And we've been doing that for 42 years, and we've always been okay. Mike, how do you watch?
Hogan: Your lettuce. I don't wash my lettuce and my wife faults me for that, but really the recommendation is if you're buying lettuce, I don't t grow lettuce at home, we grow some other things, but I really like romaine lettuce. There is probably less potential impact specifically from this parasite to different types of leaf lettuces as compared to like iceberg in romaine. I was sad, I go to buy lettuce almost every other day and I sad in my local grocery store. The shelves are almost empty of lettuce, but I'm still buying romaine. If you buy bagged and washed lettuce, you don't have to, you can be sure that it has been washed and so you don't have to wash it. But certainly, you know, experts, food safety experts tell us, you know, certainly rinsing lettuce, if you're buying that iceberg lettuce now, today, or even romaine, especially if you get full heads as opposed to like maybe hearts of romaine pull out those outer leaves, maybe discard those. Definitely wash the inner beyond those outer leaves as an extra level of precaution.
Juravich: Are you going to be washing your romaine when you find it again? It's been washed. OK.
Hogan: So I wait till my wife leaves the kitchen when I cut up the lettuce for Simon.
Juravich: Do you know why iceberg and romaine are susceptible to it because it's a tight bunch?
Hogan: Yeah, probably the way it's grown and also the way it's washed, you know, it can contaminate leaves that have less access to the parasite being washed off, you know, as compared to our leaf lettuces and other greens and things like that. But, you know, if you think about it, leafy greens are the most, I hate to use the word hazards, but that's where we see so much food contamination on vegetables is leafy greens. You know, think about past outbreaks with spinach and other type of lettuce.
Juravich: There's been outbreaks with romaine, but I do love romaine. Yeah, I agree with you. This is All Sides on 89 7 NPR news We're talking gardening with Mike Hogan extension educator at Ohio State University and Deb Knapp key author educator and Ohio's garden sage And Ohio, you know can't catch a break here between a parasite now wildfire smoke So talk to me about the impact Deb that the recent wildfire smoke that we, you know, we had air quality alert problems. What does that do to your garden whenever there's the, cause the, I mean, the garden's breathing the same air. We're, we're being cautious about, yeah.
Knapke: You know, a big thing is the particulate matter. You might have noticed dust or grittiness on your food or your ornamental plants. The rain washed most of that off. There are other chemicals that were in the atmosphere, whether they're taken up by the plants. That's a question I have. And I have worked a little bit with phytoremediation, which is how plants take up different... Compounds from the soil, from the air, et cetera. I don't have a solid answer to that other than for sure I'm washing all my food after the smoke. And I'm also, I didn't work outside in the garden. On the worst day I was out watering, I was for 30 minutes and I came in and I said, I won't do that again because I could feel it in my lungs so there is a definite issue and that was in Columbus. I had a friend who was up in Putin Bay during the worst time, and he said he couldn't see anything. You know, he had his students up there, and it was bad. And in that case, you need to be where there's filtered air, because it does affect us and animals and insects, and all, everyone who, all who are on this earth are affected by the wildfires.
Juravich: Yeah, Mike, I feel like the wildfire smoke is happening more frequently. You know, we had it happen a few summers ago for many days, and then it just happened a couple of weeks ago. I mean, what do you think about whenever, like what kind of calls do you get at the extension service whenever there's this wildfire, smoke and people are asking you questions about it.
Hogan: So we only had one individual that I know of that was questioning what will be the long-term effects. And we don't have a lot of experience with this. As you say, it's getting more common in different areas of the United States. Climate change is certainly adding to wildfires in different places. Different weather patterns will determine whether or not we're gonna be affected in Ohio. But we do have colleagues at the University of Minnesota and California universities. That have studied this a lot because they are obviously much closer to locations where it's common, wildfires are more common. My son lives in Northern California and I've been there during forest fires and wildfires where when you go out to your car, you have to run the windshield wipers just to get the ash off the windshield. We don't see much of the ash here. We mostly see the effects from aerosols like ozone and ground level ozone. Obviously we couldn't see downtown Columbus from campus very well as we normally do So you think to be less light available for photosynthesis really research shows that when we have that wildfire smoke There's actually more diffused light. Okay, so it's more available and actually increased photosynthesis synthesis can occur Which is you know antithetical a little bit the the plant cells on the leaves of plants of stomata You know, they're responsible for exchanging gasses, you know, they take in carbon dioxide, they produce oxygen. Well, they can also take in the ozone. And what research has found in out west primarily and in other countries like Australia where wildfires are more common is that the ozone can depress photosynthesis and also crop growth. It can also cause damage to the foliage, chlorosis, which is, you now, killing of the plant tissue between the veins of the leaf. We haven't seen any of that here in Columbus. If wildfires become more common in different parts of the country or Canada, and weather patterns are favorable to move the smoke, we may see that. There are some potato growers, I guess, in Wayne County that were questioning whether or not there would be some effects to potato growth. Potato growers out west have identified not just damage to the foliage above ground, but actually misshapen potatoes from repeated exposure to smoke from wildfires.
Juravich: Oh, no, not potatoes. My favorite. Don't don't they were safe on the ground, right? Don't mess with potatoes. Deb, you mentioned insects. So that that leads us to think about, you know, the the birds, the bees, the the the pollinators, they are breathing this wildfire smoke, too. And they have tiny lungs.
Knapke: Or whatever. Or whatever, yeah. Yeah, whatever. And I actually went and looked up some information because I was curious as to what would be the effect after watching bald hornets become agitated from a nest, and it's close to my office window on a second story. And I thought, hmm. So I started looking at it and they found a lot of effects, and I'm reading right from what I took off. From a woods and water news, but reduced bird song, delayed nesting activity, lower pollinator visitation, reduced bat foraging, altered deer movement, which I thought was interesting, and delayed migration or adaptation to what may happen in the environment. When I put out, you know, good old Facebook, I put out a question, why are the bald hornets going crazy these several days where we had high numbers of smoke? And one person suggested, someone who studies insects, that the chemicals in the smoke was affecting the bald Hornets and also causing them not to know where they were. Oh, and that is a real interesting. Idea when you think about it is the confusion for honey bees or other foraging animals and insects. They're reacting to the chemicals and it's confusing them. So can they get back to their nests, to their hives, to the burrows? Yeah, so it brings up a lot of questions that we'll be answering probably more in research as time goes by and as We see more wildfires. What is that effect on them and on us?
Juravich: Yeah, Mike, do you see the Extension Office maybe starting some research on this, if the wildfire smoke keeps impacting us more often?
Hogan: My guess would be yes, if we see a lot of research evolves due to climate change and other environmental changes in the environment. So sure, I think that will happen. But like I say, there's a very good base of research, even in some of our Midwestern states. Minnesota is a really good example where they have more proximity to wildfires, especially the northern part of that state, and being sharing a border with Canada. Lots of great research on not just vegetable crops on field crops corn and soybeans and other field crops You know out west like wheat and sunflowers So there is a fairly good research base But I'm interested in that may have picked up on or identified inadvertently a good wildlife control method You know, if that's a deer don't like wildfire smoke. Maybe I need to start campfire There you go out of my garden
Juravich: Oh, a very controlled fire. Yes, we are talking with Mike Hogan, an extension educator at Ohio State University and Deb Knappke, Ohio's garden sage, and we're talking about summer gardening. Listeners, we'd love for you to join the show. We're going to take your calls with your summer gardening questions. You can join us now. 614-292-8513. That's 614-292-8513. Or send us an email at allsidesatosu.org. Coming up, we're gonna talk about whether or not we've had enough rain this summer. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Gardening can be relaxing. It can also be overwhelming at times. Ohio's weather fluctuations, knowing what plants to plant when can be confusing. But today we have two experts who can take questions and help us with our gardening knowledge. Here to answer our gardening questions, we have Mike Hogan, extension educator and associate professor of agriculture and natural resources at Ohio State University. Thanks again for being here, Mike.
Hogan: I'd rather be here.
Juravich: And Deb Knapke, author, educator, and Ohio's Garden Sage. Thanks again for joining us, Deb. Having fun as usual. And listeners, we'd love for you to join us with your questions. Now's your chance. Ask Deb and Mike what's going on in your garden. 614-292-8513. Or email us at allsides at osu.org. While we wait for people to call, I'm gonna ask the question that I teased. Deb, have we had enough rain this year?
Knapke: So, Mike and I were discussing that, and the answer is yes, with reservations. Ish? We're adding an ish? I'm adding an Ish. I always add an Ish, mostly because when, lately, when we get rain, we get that half inch, that inch, and that's fantastic. But when we got two and a half inches at one point, overnight, I had two and half inches, everything's so wet, and I'm trying to figure out, now, what's my watering now. Okay, shift my watering for my tomatoes because tomatoes become sensitive to having too much water. You get cracking and then you get, and then let them dry out too much and they get blossom end rot. And so it's been a mixed blessing when you get a lot. But then I know some folks who haven't had it. I was just in Michigan and there are some really dry areas where trees are dropping their leaves. So it's a been a real hit or miss pattern. And Personally, I can say my garden looks fantastic, but I don't know about everybody else.
Juravich: Yeah, Mike, I mean, you've been on here on the show before talking about us being in a drought, and so we're doing okay now? This July and August is all right?
Hogan: We're darn near close to average. At our weather station at Waterman Farm here in the Columbus campus of OSU, I believe we're about right at 28 inches. Historically, the average August 1st is 26 inches, so that's pretty good. Different parts of, certainly Franklin County, but all of central Ohio will have differences. I've seen two or three inch differences between Hilliard and Gehanna in Grove City. But on average, we're doing pretty good precipitation-wise. I mean, lawns are still green. Some people that don't like to mow, look forward to that summer slump of turf grass. Haven't seen that, you know?
Juravich: Yeah, no one no one wants to mow in July. Yeah, but now but we've had enough rain. Yeah
Hogan: Yeah, the downside is, you know, we are seeing some, um, leaf type diseases, foliar diseases, uh, mostly from the spring weather, you know, when it was a little difficult to get things planted and our gardening chores done, when we had, uh uh, incidents of, of, uh precipitation. Um, we're seeing some leaf diseases, particularly on woody ornamentals, even some trees. Um, I have a horse chestnut and a buckeye. In my landscape and both are very infected with leaf blotch disease that causes a pathogen that causes leaf blotch simply because of the the Experiences we had, you know two months ago
Juravich: Yeah. Deb, I mean, I'm going to ask the question, not that you can predict the future, but is the drought still coming? Are we going to have a really dry September or something like that?
Knapke: And I always ask those questions too. What should I be preparing for in my garden? And we do have this active El Nino situation in the Pacific, which means when that's happening, usually the Ohio Valley gets sort of a hotter, drier summer. And we're not. So then I ask, well, why are we not? And part of me wonders if the wildfires, than what we talked about earlier. Had some impact because particulate matter in the atmosphere can sometimes affect temperature. So was that a factor or was it long enough to be a factor? Was it enough? I don't know. But I am fully expecting to have a drought and we'll be ecstatic if we don't. Ecstatic if you don't? All right.
Juravich: You heard it here first. So Mike, what, what are Ohio governors, um, like how, how was the corn crop going? You know, we, we talk about that. Like we've had the right amount of rain. Is the corn going to be good?
Hogan: You know, for the first time in probably almost 36 months, the Ohio Drought Monitor, the map of Ohio, shows that we do not have any drought conditions at all. In the past, obviously, we're a large state. We're affected by different, you know, weather, depending on where close some of the northwestern counties that are close to Lake Erie, all the way south along the Ohio River. Somewhere in the last two seasons, fairly well dispersed, we've had drought abnormally dry conditions at best. The last the most current drought monitor I saw for I think was dated August 1st, maybe Friday or Saturday data was that there are no brown or yellow colors of any county in Ohio. And that's probably the first time and definitely in growing season the last two or three growing season. So that's that's really a good thing. So, you know, it was difficult for some farmers depending on where they were and where the rain hit. You know, sometimes spring and summer rains. They rain on one side of the township road and not the other side of road. So very variable weather, even for one particular farmer. But folks, some farmers had to mud it and we call mudding in the crop, planting it on wet ground that we don't like, prefer, but we do during emergencies. But crops do look fairly well for this time of year.
Juravich: We have an email from Chris. Chris sent an email wondering about pest control with his cucumber plants. He didn't say what pests, but what could be the problem with Chris's cucumber plants and how can he save them?
Hogan: Several different critters are very common to cucumbers. I know some gardeners who just have quick growing cucumbers just because they were tired of dealing with mostly the cucumber beetle, two different types of cucumber beetles, striped cucumber beetle, spotted cucumber beetels, also flea beetles smaller insects than those cucumber beetls can sometimes cause problems with cucumbers. But it's it's the cucumber beetles that are most troublesome You know sometimes what we can do is I like to plant those crops even squashes a little bit later in the season I don't get excited about getting those planted in the ground the first thing because you know if we plant them a little later we can miss the the height of the populations of many insects that cause problem with Vining crops like cucumbers and squashes, but those those are the the common culprits of cucumber crops
Knapke: All right, Deb, you want to add? I do. And it's not cucumbers, but I planted late beans, you know, the small filet beans that are quick to come on. And I'm having a huge problem with flea beetles or bean beetles. I'm not sure which one it is because I haven't caught the little turkeys yet. But you know they're there. They look like somebody just stuck all kinds of pins in there. They're so holy. I'm sure I'll get a lot of beans. But I it was a gamble I'm pretty sure it's Lee Beatle.
Hogan: Yeah, the size of the damage is usually the indicator. We've seen more, I've seen more beanleaf beetles this year, Deb, than flea beetles. Usually we grow a lot of eggplant and they're usually riddled with flea beetles, however, flea beetles are more common when we have dry, hot temperatures. So we had those hundred degree days, but we really didn't have more than a week or 10 days of that this year and we haven't been very dry. A lot of times those little insects like flea Simply just rain or irrigation from a sprinkler end of a hose You know will knock them off the plants and it'll be enough to get the plants to outgrow the damage But we haven't seen too much damage for flea beetles I have however seen beanleaf beetles on several different crops this year more more than the normal
Knapke: So it makes me wonder, you know, the moisture helps. It's an advantage for some pests and not for others. Same as the dryness. And haven't seen a lot of spider mite damage.
Hogan: No, and see, that would be very similar, I think, to flea beetles, you know, the smaller insects like that. What is
Juravich: What do spider mites do? What, what do they go after? They, uh, bean, bean crops, almost.
Hogan: Bean crops, almost anything. A lot of ornamental crops, they are very damaging to some of our spruce trees. But again, they're most damaging during extended periods of hot, dry weather. They're a major pest of soybeans some years.
Juravich: We have Bev in Pickaway County. Bev, what is your question? Bev's on the phone. Do you have the phone? There we go Bev, are you there? Yeah. Oh, hi. All right, there we go, what's your question?
Bev: Okay. I didn't get my baby rhubarb put in the ground. Excuse me. I got transplants. They were seedlings. So I can see that little crown is there. I'm going to put them in the ground regardless. So what do I want to be mindful of when I'm this late in the game.
Juravich: All right, are we are we're late on the.
Knapke: It doesn't matter. That's still a good time to plant. The biggest thing is that rhubarb is our hungry critters Please use compost in the soil when you plant them because if you don't it's just going to limp along The and keep them evenly moist, but not overly wet Don't let them dry out and when they're in a young stage and going into the autumn just look forward to harvesting Maybe one or two spears next year. Some people don't harvest their first year. Let the plants really come on. And so next year, count as your first year as opposed to this one. So you might just let them grow next year and then harvest your rhubarb the second year. And you wanna add anything about rhubarb? No, I.
Hogan: No, I think that's true. And just watch if we do turn dry, you know, make sure you give them a little extra moisture If the ground turns dry, but you know I think Bev's question is indicative of a lot of gardeners, especially in August We get a lot request to do community programs our master gardeners and myself libraries and other groups throughout the community and we had like this increased number for August on and actually we had somebody requested for July presentation on the topic of Preparing the garden for winter, you know shutting down the garden and I'm always like my favorite My favorite gardening season is fall. You know, I'd much rather garden in August and September I'd rather garden you know hoodie and jeans than being soaking wet t-shirt because of the humidity and the moisture
But think about all the things that really all the plants food crops especially that prefer cool weather Carrots all of the greens lettuces green onions Like Deb said, we're just starting to plant those now for our fall crops. Last year, we harvested our last carrots and beets on December 7th that we took to our food pantries. And we were harvesting kale through the winter, up until February. So I would encourage folks to not think about only shutting down the garden. Maybe you don't have to replant the entire garden or every bed. Certainly we're not gonna plant warm season crops, but it's a great time to plant cool season crops. If you've never had carrots, that were in the ground during a frost. I would encourage you to try that this year. Do they taste better? They do taste better. They're sweeter. They're much sweeter because of the stored carbohydrates as a kind of antifreeze self-defense mechanism during cold weather. They are released and turned into sugars to prevent the cells from bursting. And so they are much more sweeter. That's why frozen carrots, just you buy in the store, are typically more sweeter than fresh carrots that you would get. And so same thing with beets can have an increase. Yeah, I love a garden.
Juravich: Yeah, I love a garden science experiment. Yeah. Listeners, you can join us with your summer gardening question and we can pivot from summer to fall as well. Let us know what questions you have. 614-292-8513. That's 614 2 9 2 8 5 1 3 or send an email to all sides at double osu.org. We did get an email from Belinda in Galena. Her question was how to amend the soil to not get rust on tomato plants. Rust. Rust. Do we get rust on tomato plants? I can't ask Belinda because she's not here.
Hogan: It's not as common, but different pathogens that cause rust are not uncommon. I'm not so sure that soil amendments per se have a direct effect on that. A lot of the leaf diseases that are more common on tomatoes especially are soil-borne, and so we can do some things to the soil, like covering the soil with mulch. Um... Pruning the lower leaves so there's less potential for infection when we have those raindrops hitting the soil and bouncing uh... You know the disease spores uh... Up onto the plants uh... But i'm not sure uh...
Juravich: What does rust on tomato plants look like? Does it literally look like rust?
Hogan: It does, you know, it's common on certain plants. There are rust diseases of turf grasses. Again, we typically see those types of pathogens in greater numbers when we have more wet weather and more humid weather, which both of those have been rare this growing season.
Juravich: 614-292-8513, or send us an email to allsides at www.osu.org. We are talking with Mike Hogan, Extension Educator at Ohio State University, and Deb Kinnapke, Ohio's Garden Sage. This is your chance to ask them your gardening questions, so give us a call, 614.292.8513. And we'll continue with All Sides in just a moment on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. This hour we are discussing all things gardening, from growing our own produce to what can grow in your yard as you head from summer into the fall. And here to answer your gardening questions, we have Deb Knappke, author, educator in Ohio's Garden Sage. Thanks for being here, Deb. As always, it's fun. And Mike Hogan, extension educator and associate professor of agriculture and natural resources at Ohio State University. Thanks for be here again, Mike. And we're going to go to Sarah in Columbus. Sarah, what's your question?
Sarah: Um, hi, I'm in the Columbus area and I'm just wondering, I do a lot of backyard gardening, um, my, my acorn squash got completely wiped out, I think by squash bugs this year and we pick off the eggs. We go out like every day or a couple of times a week and pick off the eggs, but I was wondering if nematodes are all they are, you know, hyped up to be, should I be using those in my soil for next year?
Juravich: All right, you're gonna have to tell me what a nematode is, Deb. I don't know what that means.
Knapke: It looks like a worm, but it's not a worm. Many of them are parasitic. They eat other things. And they're in the soil. And I've not heard of nematodes. I say nematode, but you know, it's potato potato. It's potato potato. Tomato, tomato. Yeah, so I've no heard of a nematod that goes after squash beetles because that's above ground. So, nematodes go on, except for foliar nematode on hostas, and that's a whole nother thing, but usually they're in the soil. What you're doing is good, but my...
Juravich: Yeah, tell me about Sarah picking off the eggs of the squash bugs. Is that what she's supposed to be doing?
Hogan: Oh, absolutely. That's the most effective thing, you know, and a lot of times they're on the underside of the leaves very easy to see Squash bug eggs are fairly large when we think about insect eggs They are but you know just tear off that section of the leaf with the eggs throw it in your household trash Put you know You put a bucket take a bucket of soapy water to the garden with you and drop them in there
Another thing, so many times when we about controlling or leaving almost hate to say controlling we used to say eradicating insects We're not gonna eradicate insects A lot of times we're not gonna control insects. Best thing we can do is to figure out how to live with insects, right, when we're growing plants. And so I like to think about cultural controls. Certainly scouting, picking off those eggs, incredibly effective. Another thing to do, especially with squash bugs, which are very common, as I mentioned, maybe plant a little bit later. We don't wanna go too late with winter squash because they take longer to develop, obviously. But planting a trap crop, we find research has shown that... Very specific winter squash squash called blue Hubbard squash is a very large winter squash My great-grandfather and upstate New York used to grow that when I was a kid and they'd store them inside the farmhouse They're as big as pumpkins type of thing feed a whole family type of things But we have found by planting those at the edge of the garden For some reason the insects prefer that type of squash and they are attracted to it. And so
Juravich: And it'll leave your other squash alone?
Hogan: Exactly and you don't have to worry about harvesting that your goal is not to harvest to grow the the Hubbard winter squash is to keep The squash bugs off your you know, Delicata or zucchini or yellow squash or whatever it is So I always encourage people think about cultural controls Insecticides, especially, you know chemical insecticides should be our last tool that we use in the toolbox
Juravich: All right, we're gonna hear from Carla in Grove City. Carla, what's your question?
Carla: Hi. So I plant, I have three tomato plants, all different varieties. This is probably wrong but I plant my tomatoes pretty much in the same place every year and I get a big harvest generally. But one of the three this year is the biggest plant I've ever seen. It's not a single tomato.
Juravich: Is that surprise you make?
Hogan: No, that's not an uncommon occurrence. First of all, I don't know what varieties you have, but it is probably an indeterminate variety, which is different than determined varieties of tomatoes and that it continues to grow in size and produce flowers. One of the worst things we can do with tomatoes, but especially in determined varieties is continue to feed them nitrogen. Too many folks bring us plants into our clinic at the OSU Extension office in Franklin County. They'll bring in a tomato plant just as she describes, maybe six foot tall, lots of flowers, but maybe sometimes no flowers, or the flowers never set into fruit. And when I ask, have you fertilized at all? Someone who says, oh yes, I fertilize weekly with high nitrogen, maybe liquid fertilized like Miracle Grow or something. That's not what we want to do, especially with those types of tomato plants. They certainly need a little extra nitrogen when they start to flower and develop fruit. But it's not the type, but we don't treat those plants the same as you might treat your impatience or begonias that might benefit from a weekly or biweekly shot of fertilizer.
Knapke: Yeah, Deb, tomato thoughts. Tomato thoughts. So I don't use any liquid foliar feeds when I plant them. I put compost in the area. And in the fall, I put leaves over the area, and they break down over the winter, and that gets incorporated with the soil too. So I'm trying to use more of a soil building technique rather than feeding them during the season. It's just a different way of doing it. There are so many different ways to garden. Um, and finding your best one. But I agree on the nitrogen, you know, um, I've been seeing some gorgeous plants and then I hear, well, I use this 20, 20, and I'm thinking, Oh boy. You know, it's just, it just too much, too much of a good thing.
Juravich: We have an email from a person who didn't leave their name. And they want to know, does the Extension office have an arborist that is free to the public?
Hogan: We don't have an arborist on staff, but we do have two extension faculty, like myself, that can help homeowners either diagnose problems with trees or suggest when and how they might contact an arbrist to help them with tree issues. We get lots of tree issues, questions, people bringing. Leaves and whole branches into our our clinic. We have a gardening helpline that's staffed by our Master Gardener volunteers throughout the growing season April through October. Used to be all in person two days a week. It's still in person two day a week, but most of our contacts come on the phone, come a lot come by email with digital photographs and we can certainly help folks diagnose tree problems in their landscape.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR news. We are talking to extension educator Mike Hogan and Ohio's garden sage, Deb Knappke. And there's still a few minutes left for you. If you have a question, 614-292-8513 or email us at all sides at double osu.org. Again, that's 614 292-8513. I did want to spend some time to talk about native gardening because it seems like a trend that has grown into a. A career for people. Everyone wants their gardens to be native. Deb, you smiled real big. Talk to me about native plants because it is all the rage right now.
Knapke: The rage. I love native plants. I have a lot of them in my garden. I also have a lot of non-native plants. Where I draw the line is invasive plants. I will not plant a known invasive plant. Now that's not to say that a plant will, I like to use the term click, and suddenly become overabundant, taking advantage of the environment. And the definition of an invasive plant is doing economic and environmental harm and so we really need to look at that definition and realize that's what an invasive is not just a little mint plant that likes to scurry through the garden but back to native there are some insects other animals etc that depend on a specific plant for instance goldenrod there are 42 species of native bees that must have goldenrod in the environment or they have no food. So in that case, yes, I have golden rods for them. But at the same time, I also have my lavender plants, which are not native to Ohio. And they are phenomenal pollinator plants. They are visited by generalist bees. I don't know of any specialist bees that visit them. And, let's see, the bees, butterflies, lots of butterflies. So I think what it comes down to is understanding why you have native plants and also the understanding that if you think you're putting things back the way they were, that's just an unrealistic goal. And I've heard some people say that that's what they're trying to do. There is no such thing as going back. We go forward in a garden. And so I think there is a beautiful marriage between our native plants and our non-native plants, depending on what you want them for. And I am a food and herb grower. And most of those plants are not native to Ohio, although I do have quite a few native herbs in my woodland garden. And I have, I do has raspberries. I was just gonna add
Juravich: Like, so what is native? Raspberries? Raspberries?
Knapke: Raspberries, pawpaws, okay, help me out here. Wild strawberries. Wild strawberries, yes. But maybe not what we want to eat. Yeah, well, they're shorter periods of time, so you're gonna kind of go hungry. And, you know, all that we've, you mentioned peppers, so that's Mexico, southwest U.S., into South America and our tomatoes, so they're new world crops, so it depends on Native to where? Yeah, yeah. And also what it is you're trying to do in your garden. And I, and my, my last thought on that before letting Mike say something, if I haven't said everything, um, is that we're in a time of climate change. We don't know what we will, what will adapt to that. And so I'm keeping an open mind and an open heart to understanding the ecology and the environment. And watching. I am constantly watching to see who visits what and what benefits the garden and the environment on the whole.
Juravich: And Mike, your extension office is having what you're calling a fall native plant field day. And so tell us what people can learn if they attend this.
Hogan: Yeah, as you said, certainly native plants have become more popular. We have a group of master gardeners. Master gardeners can become specialized in a specific topic. And we have a very large group that have recently become specialized in our statewide specialization program in native plants. One of the things we're going to do this fall on Saturday, September 12th at this field day is we'll spend a little time indoors, but then we're gonna go outside into our learning gardens, which Deb actually helped design of probably 12, 14 years ago. Yeah, it was longer than, both you and I had fewer gray hairs back then.
But one thing we're going to concentrate on this fall, Amy, at this event is how to manage those herbaceous perennials in the fall and winter. There are several beneficial insects and some of the native bees that Deb mentioned that really depend on having those plants in the landscape, especially some plants like coneflowers, other plants with a hollow stem. If we, instead of just cutting those off the ground level and composting the plant residue, if we can leave those to spring, pop off the heads, that gives a place for beneficial insects, and like I said, native bees, to overwinter. And we wait till spring before we remove those plants. And there were some other tricks and tools, but that's kind of gonna be the focus. Go out into our gardens and look how we're managing the plants, not just for the plants and the environment, but to benefit the pollinators and beneficial insects.
Juravich: Okay, we have four minutes left, so I'm gonna try to get through a couple of questions. Bonnie wants to know where to find Goldenrod.
Knapke: Goldenrod is now becoming more popular in almost every garden center. Some of them, I will say, are pretty vigorous. But take a look at blue wreath, or blue stem, I'm sorry, blue stem goldenrod, zigzag goldenrod which can self-seed like a son of a gun. But you can take out the ones you don't want. Fireworks, fireworks goldenrod. Solar Cascade Goldenrod. They are all cultivars that have been chosen from wild populations.
Juravich: So we can find we can fine seeds at a garden center.
Knapke: You can fight.
Hogan: Just don't overwater them. I made that mistake. I treated them like some other herbaceous perennials in my bed and I watered them too much and they just didn't last and spread the way they should have and I believe it was because I overwatered them. And don't fertilize. Don't fertilized. That's true. They require less fertility. They don't require that rich soil. Think about where they grow in the native environment.
Juravich: Yeah, and Bonnie also wants to know, so if you plant the golden rod, then the bees will just find it eventually. Oh, yeah. All right. If you plant it, they will come. They will come! All right, really quick. Stephanie in Clintonville. Stephanie, what's your question?
Stephanie: I have an Elm tree and I planted it in 2012 and it's starting to get the Elm Leaf Miner Sawfly and I was told if I treated it in March, I wouldn't get the Sawfly but then I also will not have food for the birds to eat, right, because they make little caterpillars and I'm sure the birds eat them. So is it better to like let my tree suffer because it seems to be getting a little worse every year or do I treat it and like the poor birds won't get food.
Hogan: Boy, that's a tough one. Well, you know, it depends on the size of the tree or the age of the three. You know, a newly planted tree, very small sapling, you know a little bit of foliage loss, you know will have an effect on its ability to store carbohydrates and put on growth, you know and be ready for next spring. As that tree matures and you say you've had it in the environment for a few years, I'm not so sure I get excited about saw flies. There are some specific saw flies that when they're present in great numbers can defoliate trees. Um, but like you said, uh, you know a different ecosystem service you know providing a food source for the songbirds that we all know and love and so I'm not so sure I would get overly excited unless you're getting them in such great numbers that you're you know third quarter third of the foliage is defoliated.
Juravich: All right, we have 30 seconds. Can you help Bill in Clintonville help his service berry bushes recover from the heat?
Knapke: Compost, not right up against the trunk, but a big ring of compost around, water it in, and sit under it and talk to it. Ha ha ha!
Hogan: Service berries are funny, you know, I have a couple of different varieties in my yard and I swear they start to drop their leaves July 4th when the fireworks start and they come back fine. They're pretty resilient, they're native obviously, most of them, and they'll be fine.
Juravich: Okay, so he's just maybe a little worried. All right. We've been talking with Mike Hogan, an Extension Educator and Associate Professor of Agriculture and Natural Resources at Ohio State University. Thank you for being here, Mike.
Hogan: Yep. Glad to be here.
Juravich: And thank you to Deb Knappke, author, educator, and Ohio's Garden Sage. Thank you, Deb. Nice to be here. As I said before. And this has been All Sides. On 89.7 NPR News, I'm Amy Juravich. Thanks for joining us. You can listen back if you missed any part of today's show, www.osu.org slash All Sides. Thanks.