This episode originally aired on July 15, 2026.
The history of the Columbus music scene runs far and deep.
Jazz and swing took over Columbus streets in the 1920s, followed by rock, soul and swing, in the 60s, ending the 20th century with punk, indie and rock.
Now in 2026, you can find almost every genre and instrument being played in Columbus.
Columbus was the starting point for many successful musicians such as jazz artist Rahsaan Roland Kirk, duo Twenty-One Pilots and country band Rascal Flatts.
Now, it is a place that is nurturing new musicians that are hoping to one day make it big like their fellow Buckeye stars.
Today, we will hear about all sides of the Columbus music industry, from venues to nonprofit organizations that make music possible for many.
Guests:
- Walker Evans, co-founder, Columbus Underground
- Charlie Jackson, co-owner, Natalie's Grandview
- Amy Holihan, executive director, Music Columbus
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. The Columbus music scene ranges from pop to jazz, rap to indie, and everything in between. Musicians are supported, challenged, and succeeding in this environment, and journalists have been keeping up with the ever-changing scene. Here to talk about the Columbus music seen and more is the co-founder of Columbus Underground, Walker Evans. Welcome back, Walker. Thanks for having me. So today's show is all about the local music industry. What has it been like from your perspective to watch and write about local music over the years?
Walker Evans: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's always ebbs and flows to it. And I feel like, you kind of during the pandemic, when everything shut down, everything kind of ground to a halt across a lot of like creative sectors. But since then there's been a lot of a resurgence of new musicians and venues and events and festivals. And yeah, I've only really seen it go up over the past like five or six years, I'd say.
Juravich: And when did you start Columbus Underground? Remind me.
Evans: 2001, so we're celebrating 25 years this year.
Juravich: Oh, wow. Yeah, so so 25 years ago when he wrote your first music review, like what was the Columbus music scene like?
Evans: Uh, well, so my wife and I, who, you know, was my girlfriend at the time, we founded this together. And we were really into, like, the EDM scene back then, so, like dance parties and nightclubs and DJ nights and stuff like that. Oh, how fun. Yeah, yeah. So we were paying a little more attention to that than, like local bands and things like that, but even back then you know the scene was diverse. And there has been a resurgence in that. We just wrote about a new venue opening in Franklinton that's going to focus on, like, dance parties, and DJ night and stuff, so. Oh, wow. Yeah, the kids, the younger kids are into it again.
Juravich: The kids these days, are you going to go to revisit your youth a little bit? To revisit your youth a little bit.
Evans: Maybe wearing earplugs at this point.
Juravich: Yeah. Got it. Well, did you find at any point in the time that you've been covering this, have you found any sort of gap in showcasing local music? I mean, was Columbus Underground trying to fill a gap, I guess is what I'm asking.
Evans: Yeah, and more recently, I would say, as well, because, you know, we used to have the other paper and the Columbus Alive, which both had a pretty heavy music focus on a week-to-week basis and both of them have since gone. So I would see there is kind of a bit of a gap in terms of that sort of thing. And we do have Matter News and some other, like, local organizations that do pay a little more attention to the local music scene compared to, like the Dispatch, which I feel like, you know, the Weekender might do some local music stuff, but... Yeah, and you know and we even you know have gaps in our coverage as well We've had some freelancers kind of drop off over the years. So just this year We rehired some new freelancers to focus specifically on music and kind of you know plug back in
Juravich: So, I'm old enough like you to remember the print version of Columbus Alive, a newspaper slash magazine, whatever you want to call it, that highlighted things going on in and around the city. And it was basically the source for local music information. And do you think the city is missing that in this digital age, the actual like picking up to the paper at the coffee shop and flipping through.
Evans: Um, it probably depends upon the age of the person you ask, if we're missing that or not. You know, anyone under the age 30 probably just doesn't remember that being a thing.
Juravich: And wouldn't need it because they never did.
Evans: Yeah, yeah. But I feel like we have become overly reliant on social media apps to kind of give us, you know, like, oh, I'm going to follow this band on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever, and get their updates. But you don't always see everything, you know of the things that you follow. So I think a lot of times, and we see this as well when we're producing events, you know. We post photos of the event after it happened. They're like, oh, didn't know about this. And it's like, we've been promoting it for weeks, you know? Like every band is promoting themselves, but their fans don't we see it. So having almost like a guiding hand with something like an alt weekly like the Alive used to be, it was kind of a discovery mechanism for people that I think we just don't really have as much of anymore.
Juravich: Yeah, even if you follow something the algorithm doesn't always let you see the most updated post. Yeah, it's like my mind-boggling, but that's how it is, right?
Evans: I will say, you know, if people do want to kind of go a throwback to an older era of music discovery Cringe.com is still around. I don't know if you ever used Cringe, or yeah. I've heard of it. I showed my 18 year old son cringe.com and it was like discovering a secret treasure, you know, like this isn't a thing that's on, you know, he has social media apps, Joel Treadway, the founder of Cringe but like you type in this URL into the browser and it pulls up a website and it's a listing of shows going on and so Um, we, we do have some, some things like that, that I don't think exist in all other cities. Like cringe is a pretty unique thing to Columbus.
Juravich: So over the years, has the overall local music scene, would you say it's gotten bigger, smaller, stayed the same? Like where are we at from 25 years ago to now?
Evans: I mean, it's tough to really define the metrics around that. And I know Amy from Music Columbus is gonna be on a little later. Yeah, she has some.
Juravich: Yeah, she has some metrics.
Evans: Yeah, yeah, she can she can probably do a better job than me on that sort of stuff But I mean the city gets bigger, you know, the the neighborhoods get bigger the cool places to hang out get bigger There's there's more of everything in Columbus when you look back 20 25 years just population-wise. We're a bigger city So it feels like the there are more things going on any given weekend So I think that carries over to the music scene I think it's gotten a lot more diverse to you know just in terms of music. You know, we don't I think we wanna have a sound, like a Seattle sound or a Nashville sound, but it really depends on what you're into in Columbus. You can find just about any genre here.
Juravich: Yeah, I was going to ask you if you've noticed any trends in local music, but I guess is the diversity the trend?
Evans: I mean, to some degree, and I mean that there are, you know... Singer-songwriter, you know, like we have Lydia Loveless and there are musicians that I think are similar in style to her, you, know, kind of, you they're like sub-genre scenes to an extent, you know. We've got a huge like hip-hop and rap scene and so there are people that find success there and that kind of just, you now, there's like a gravitational pull to it. So there's a bit of that, but I wouldn't say we have anything as large as like, Detroit has a sound, you know, something like that.
Juravich: Have you noticed any struggles for Columbus musicians? What struggles are they facing like right now?
Evans: All of them. I mean, I'm not a musician, so I don't want to put words in their mouth, but the folks that I talk to, and I just had coffee with a friend who is a pretty popular local musician just last week. And it's finding venues, booking shows. When you're any kind of like young creative, regardless of output, like you have to be everything. So it's like, we have to do our own taxes. We have to find our own venues. We have drive ourselves and load in our equipment and unload our equipment. So I think, you know, for a lot of them, it's worrying about getting all of the 20 other sort of tertiary things correct and how much that takes away from just like practicing and rehearsing and writing and like focusing on the actual craft.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the Columbus music scene with Walker Evans, co-founder of Columbus Underground. What about venues? Have you noticed any big changes in local music venues over the years? I know the pandemic made a few of them struggle, but yeah, talk to me about music venues over the year.
Evans: Yeah, I mean, they're still not without their challenges. And one thing I think Music Columbus has been doing a great job of, and I've just been energized to kind of be sitting on the sidelines, is getting venues together to talk about this stuff. And I'm sure, you know, again, Amy, we'll talk about that here in a little bit. But they're bringing folks together on a monthly basis, you know that the owners of Natalie's and the owners of Rumba Cafe and the owner's of Ace of Cups and just. Getting people together just to like talk about what their issues are and collaborating on things. It reminds me a lot, I don't know if you remember the group Dine Originals, the restaurant group from like 15, 20 years ago. I was a board member on that. But it was the same sort of thing of like, let's get Barcelona and the refectory and like all these restaurants together. Oh I see.
Juravich: Oh, I see. Getting all the restaurants together. Yeah. So instead of.
Evans: Yeah, so instead of thinking of each other as competitors, you know, trying to pull people in for any show on any given night, like think more collectively about like the real competition is people just sitting at home on their couch, you know on Netflix or TikTok or playing Fortnite or like whatever they're doing, they're not out at a local music show. So I'm really encouraged to see people collaborating to help solve some of those issues. Cause again, the issues are just getting the word out on what shows are, you now rents are going up, the cost of doing business is going up especially for small businesses. Of course, Ticketmaster, Live Nation, that's a gigantic 800-pound gorilla fighting against small venues. But all of that said, whenever I go to shows at local venues, they're well-run, they are well-attended. There are new venues opening, like the one I mentioned, Boombox in Franklinton.
Juravich: Which has such a great name.
Evans: It is a great name, yeah, and it's close to Sweeney's, which opened about a year and a half ago, and they've got a big music focus, so I think there's a lot of exciting things going on.
Juravich: Earlier, I mentioned the musical duo Twenty One Pilots. I mean, how is having an artist like them, you know, there's other big names that have come out of the Columbus music scene as well, but what does that do to Columbus? Do people think of us, can they think of us as a music town or does it take more than just the Twenty One Pilots?
Evans: It definitely takes more than one to kind of do it. I think what's kind of cool about them, and it's not generally my genre of music, but they really pay it back to the city. They have their big show coming up at Ohio Stadium. But a couple years ago, they did the Tour de Columbus, and they played all of the venues that they had played before, and so it was this nice, it was like five or six venues. So they really put back into it, and I'm a big music discovery person on YouTube. I love music videos. Growing up in the 80s and 90s, watching MTV, I love these videos. But a lot of their videos, they shoot in Columbus. And so you can see the landmarks, and it's like, oh, wow, that was shot at the Athenaeum. I've been in there, that's pretty cool. So I think more bands doing that sort of thing. And I think we're seeing some examples. We just wrote about the Orphan and the Poet, local bands, but their music videos are shot locally. They're very in tune with trying to love the city that loved them, rather than like. Oh, we got to go to New York and make it big there. Like, how can we make it work on our own home turf? On home turf.
Juravich: And there's people here to help you shoot a music video too. Oh, of course, yeah, yeah. Of course, you do a great job. So this May, Columbus Underground unveiled a new series called Sounds of Columbus. What made you decide to start this?
Evans: Yeah, well, I mean I said a little earlier that we you know, we kind of saw some holes in our music coverage You know and some of it was just freelancers after two or three years They moved to other cities or they kind of get involved in other projects So we're like we need to bring on board some new freelance writers But we didn't want to just hire them and say go, you know Like how do we make a big deal out of this? And so I started thinking about the alive used to do like a bands to watch issue every spring And so we're liked what if we did something kind of akin to that I like the sounds of Columbus making it broader, more genre-wise, because to me, bands says just like four white guys with guitars. So we've got such a great scene across so many genres. So we tapped everyone we could think of that owns a music venue, record store, music shop, to help submit and nominate musicians for this. So it wasn't just me saying, Oh, here's 12 cool bands that I like because I'm old and out of touch and I don't really know who's who the young, cool musicians are.
Juravich: Right, so there were nominations. Yeah, yeah.
Evans: Yeah, yeah, so everyone nominated it put together a spreadsheet. I think of like 40, you know So we were able to kind of come through that and refine it and some you know different people and they all they all did This without context like they nominated the same musician and so it's like oh well four different people all said pay attention to this one So that's the one we should definitely take a look into
Juravich: So you narrowed it down. You ended up highlighting 12 musicians or groups or bands or whatever you wanna call them. And we don't have time to discuss all 12, but how did you decide the 12? Just basically if more than one person said their name or you wanted a variety.
Evans: Yeah, I mean, that was part of it, but as a part of that nomination process, we also asked like, what do they have going on in 2026 to make them noteworthy? Are they releasing a new album? Are they going on tour? Make sure they're still active. Yeah, that and like there's something signature going on this year that like really makes them stand out. And so I pulled the list up just to look at it. Yeah, and so that kind of helped. And again, like we wanted to make sure that we had like diversity in terms of genre so that, you know, there's someone who's, you . Jazz, there's someone who's rap, there someone who is electronic, there is someone who is punk rock.
Juravich: I, you know, we don't have time to discuss all 12. I'm going to make you pick one or two. I mean, just to tell me about a musician that was featured, you know why they were picked and yeah, pick one. Sure, yeah.
Evans: Sure, yeah. I mean, I'm just looking at the Austin and the CID experience right at the very top of the list. They've been blowing up.
Juravich: Cause alphabetical order.
Evans: Alphabetical order, yes. Sorry to everyone else that doesn't start with an A. Yeah, I mean, they've been playing a lot of festivals this summer, like big, loud, psychedelic, rock explosion sort of thing. Really great stage presence, big sound. And they've performed at Natalie's. They've done a lot a really cool things. So I think that's one to watch in a way that if you don't already follow them. And these pieces we wrote, they're interviews, but we hired a photographer to kind of shoot some unique photos with them, so there's like a visual presence. And we also embed videos, we embed Spotify playlists, we link to, you know, follow them on Bandcamp, follow them Instagram, follow on TikTok. Anything that they have out there, we wanna make sure people plug in, because there's, everyone has a different preferred platform for Apple Music, all this stuff.
Juravich: Well, pick one more that doesn't start with A.
Evans: Uh, sure. The one that I interviewed that kind of got on my radar was hummus vacuum.
Juravich: Which is such a, I looked at the list and I was like, hummus vacuum, what a name. What a name.
Evans: Yeah, and a really unique story about a guy from Cleveland, Kevin, who moved here during the pandemic, was kind of dove into TikTok to do sort of like comedic music things. Like his background was always music, but he was doing more like skits and sketches and stuff and grew a large following on social media that way and then kind of leaned back into music. So like the band was sort of born out of this like leaning into social media, but it's very like early 2000s pop punk emo music in a way that's like got a bit of a resurgence. So if you grew up listening to Blink-182 or Green Day or My Chemical Romance, this kind of scratches that itch.
Juravich: Does the story, we don't have to give it away, does the story say why they're called hummus vacuum?
Evans: Uh, it does. Okay. All right.
Juravich: Okay. All right. Well, people have to read it to find out that, but we're going to leave you on that cliff note. Just to end on, what are some ways that you think, just from your perspective, you are the co-founder of Columbus Underground, but you're not the expert, But what are ways people can support local music in Columbus?
Evans: Buy a ticket and go to a show. I mean that's the biggest thing. One of the things that we did when we released this list of 12 musicians to follow was also here's a guide to some smaller music-centric festivals in Columbus that you can go kind of discover things at. Some of the ones coming up I think are great ways to just sort of like dive headfirst into the local music scene. Alley Islands, which was scheduled for the spring, it got rained out and so they delayed I think there's like, you know 18 20 bands that you know, that would be playing there Another one coming up on October 1st is the Blockout Bash in Old North. So it's all of the venues there, Ace of Cups, Dirty Dungarees, Space Bar. You can get a wristband, I think, for like 30 bucks, and it's good for all shows all day. So it a great way to just sort of, I say like drink from the fire hose of local music. Because like, you know, you'll walk into a venue, listen to a couple songs. If you're not digging it, you can just walk across street, go in another venue. So there is no commitment to like, oh, I paid 10 bucks, I need to watch this entire set from start to finish and kind of bop around and discover new things.
Juravich: We have been talking about the local music scene with the co-founder of Columbus Underground, Walker Evans. Thank you for your time today.
Evans: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk about a Columbus music venue that is serving up great food and great music. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Music can't be shared unless there's a place to share it. Bars, cafes, and restaurants have all begun to showcase music. But Natalie's in Grandview is creating something special, a place together with equally good food and good music. Whether you stop by for one of their pizzas or to listen to one of the many bands that visit, you're guaranteed a good time. And here to tell us more is the co-owner of Natalie's, Charlie Jackson. Welcome to the show, Charlie. Hi, Amy. So Natalie's has become a go-to place for great music and great food. Can you tell me why Natalie's was started? Tell me a little bit about your origin story.
Charlie Jackson: Yeah, well, we're approaching 14 years now, so it's been quite a while. We originally opened in Worthington. And it really started with my daughter, Natalie, her brainstorming back as she was living in New York City after graduating from college. And she grew up in an environment where I had a band, we had a local pizza place down in Circleville, Ohio. And she had a summer job there. My son delivered pizzas there. And it was just kind of a cool little scene where I booked the music. I performed there occasionally. And so I think as she was processing all that, as she became an adult, she came up with the idea of like, hey, dad, if I moved back to Ohio, you could do your music thing. And maybe we could create our own little scene. And so after joking about it for quite a while. You know, we really started taking it seriously and I started scouting locations. She moved back to Ohio. We found the Worthington location.
Juravich: Yeah, what made you decide that pizza and music needed to go together?
Jackson: Well, Natalie was fascinated by this pizzeria in Greenwich Village called John's Pizza. And they used a coal, anthracite coal pizza oven. And I think that just captured her imagination and said, gosh, there's nothing like this in Ohio. So, and I think we just kind of combined our instincts thinking that a lot of people like pizza. But Ohio doesn't have that style and that method of cooking the pizza. So we thought, well, that should be part of the draw. And I felt pretty confident about my ability to bring musicians together and present music. And so I just think we combined our gut instincts and followed our hearts and it seemed to work out.
Juravich: Yeah, pizza is one of those meals that can make everyone happy, because you can have it so many different ways, right? Yeah. Pizza and tacos. Those are the two that make everyone happy. You have a comic strip on your website that's kind of the origin story of Natalie's. And you say it started out as a joke. Did it? Like, tell me about that.
Jackson: Yeah, well, you know, again, we're visiting, my wife and I are visiting Natalie in New York, we're walking the streets, we are posing for pictures like from the Bob Dylan cover from Freewheel. And you know we're just brainstorming and throwing out these silly ideas and that one just kind of caught on. So I think it really was, yeah right, you know who's got money to start a live music venue in Columbus, Ohio kind of thing. But you know the more we talked about it and more we kind of honed in on the vision. And trying to keep it simple. You know, it became more than just a fleeting thought or a joke.
Juravich: And what a part of the joke is that she said to keep her name out of it. Like, is that like, why did you name it after her?
Jackson: Well, you know, you go through this naming process and of course it can also become very silly. And I actually recently, I've located some of the old graphics that a friend of mine that was trying to, he created a little Natalie character with a hat similar to what she currently still wears. And so at the end of the day, it came down to just a few choices and I always liked the personal aspect of it. I think she was really reluctant and I think in hindsight it was like, Well, I wish we had... Come up with a different name but it just seemed a name that most of our family and friends thought worked.
Juravich: Yeah, it could either be Charlie's or Natalie's. Might as well go with Natalie, right? Yeah. Yeah. So did you always intend to combine the music menu and the restaurant and have it be like a 50-50 thing or did you think that like pizza or music, one of them was gonna win out?
Jackson: You know, that was the big question early on. Do you consider yourself one or the other? And I said, well, can't we be both? I think our thought process was, whatever we do, let's do it right. Let's make the best pizza we're capable of making. Let's makes it fresh from scratch. And let's really take the music seriously, not just as an afterthought, having maybe a band playing over in the corner while families are in their dining. So we really, especially in the early days, we tried to combine the two. So in the earlier part of the evening, we open at five o'clock. People would come in for happy hour. Families would come and have pizza. And then we transitioned from that sit down restaurant type of thing to seating for a ticketed show. And so we just kind of went with that flow. I think over the years now, in hindsight, looking at it 14 years later, we probably more identify with being a music is our brand and music is what really was the driving force behind this, but it's nice to have both, and it's also nice for people to be assured that we're gonna do the best we can with the drinks, with the food, for it to be a good experience.
Juravich: Tell me about the transition from Worthington to Grandview and your space now. Talk to me about that transition.
Jackson: Well, back in 2018, 2019, I had some friends in the band Pop Gun that were playing at a place called King Avenue Five. And at that point, we were thinking about opening a second location if we could find the right spot. And I had a few people tell me about that, and I was confused when they told me. I thought it was over on, closer to Neal. I thought was, and I can't remember the other location, it's on. It was on King Avenue at the time. So I was a little confused on that. I don't think that's a good spot for us. And then when it finally dawned on me where it was and the fact that they were actually going to close and they were trying to sell the business, I went to one of their shows and got the grand tour from the owner and really kind of trusted our instincts again. It was a lot larger space, big parking lot. It had a lot of the ingredients that we were always looking for when we were originally looking. So, you know, at that point in time, we felt like, hey, business is going well. We're paying off our debt. You know, we might actually finally make a little bit of money. And so we opened the second location and renovated it, you now, really went through that whole thing, raised some more money, went back into debt. And then COVID hit three months after we opened. And so, we were immediately shut down. And, you know, so that was. The original thing was just feeling like, hey, this is a bigger space. We know enough musicians now that we could probably book two venues.
Juravich: So yeah, but bad timing with COVID. Yeah, so you realize probably from COVID that you couldn't keep too open.
Jackson: Is that right? That was primarily it. I think also as a family, after you live with it a while and you feel like, oh gosh, we're kind of disconnected. We have part of our staff that's at the new place. I think putting everything together, we just kind of felt like Grandview.
Juravich: And you got to pick the bigger place, yeah, yeah. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the Columbus music scene and we're talking with Natalie's co-owner Charlie Jackson. So talk to me about the music because you're wearing a shirt right now that says Natalie's respecting the music. So talk me about what that means to you. What does respecting the the music mean?
Jackson: Well before we opened I think in talking through what we wanted to accomplish in the environment that we wanted create, we felt strongly that we want it to be a destination, we want to be a place that both musicians would feel comfortable and respected and that the audience I know that is a lifelong music lover I know I've had my favorite venues and I've had places that I thought oh gosh I wish I could I wish music was more of a focal point. And the sound was better and the environment, you know, that kind of thing. So I think we approached it slightly differently so that we'd made sure that, yeah, there's not a TV on while a band's playing. that it wasn't an afterthought. So I just think that we consciously wanted that experience to be good for everybody, as good as we could make it. And it's always an ongoing process trying to tweak things, trying to make everything as good as we are able to make it
Juravich: And so now that you have this bigger space, you have a few different stages. I mean, talk to me about the different purposes that you had.
Jackson: Well, when we took over this space at 9,400 square feet and we're coming from a 2,400-square-foot place, so. Bigger is bigger, yes. And so our original concept was to have, on the dining side, we had a little corner stage that the original intent was just to have like maybe Bobby Floyd jazz trio player in the corner, you know, during dinner, that kind of thing, but the main room would be where we would have ticketed shows. And, you know, as we're going through the struggles with COVID and coming out of COVID, I think we just recognize that we really needed to embrace music fully. So we expanded our corner stage. It was then Natalie's payback to me saying, all right, well, we're gonna call that stage Charlie's Stage.
Juravich: Ah, so it's named after you. All right. Yes.
Jackson: And so we just consciously then decided to really go all in and so we do free happy hour shows on Charlie's stage Wednesday through Sunday and then it's followed by a ticketed show on each of the other stages. We stagger show times about an hour so everyone's not arriving at the same time.
Juravich: And I thought it was called The Happening Hour, not Happy Hour, right? You're right. All right, I just, I like the name Happening hour. What kind of music and musicians are coming to perform at Natalie's? What types of music are you bringing in?
Jackson: Well, the big question when we were coming up with the concept was, you know, how to answer that question. And I think our feeling was good music. Let's not be pigeonholed into being a folk club, a jazz club, a blues club, or rock club. Let's be a great music club. I've always loved the diversity of music. I was fortunate growing up that my father listened to everything from bluegrass to the Mills Brothers and R&B and my sister, older sister loved. The Everly Brothers, Little Richard. So I kind of grew up in this environment where I loved it all, and I grew up in the 60s where on radio, you would hear everything. You'd hear Otis Redding next to James Taylor. And so I think that really drove our instincts as far as music. Also, I think business-wise, it was trying to diversify our audience. So we could get a Black Gospel crowd on a Sunday. We could get blues crowd. We could a classical crowd. So that's really been the driving force and logic behind all of this.
Juravich: What's your percentage of local versus bringing in acts that are not from Ohio or from Columbus, I guess? How much local do you have versus non-local?
Jackson: You know, it's been more of an organic fluid kind of thing over the years. I think now we're, as we're crystallizing our music team, we have regular meetings where we're really trying to analyze some of that a little bit more scientifically if you'd, you know, so to speak. But I think it's more of a, I'd say we're right around 50-50 as far as, but I don't, I really don't know. I just know we try to book the best acts we can on any given date. Whether it happens to be a touring act or a local regional act.
Juravich: Do you have acts that like apply? Like they say, we want to perform at your venue or like they send you a date and just you, and then you like figure out if it works out.
Jackson: We have a site on our on our website a link where anyone interested can click on that. We ask them for certain information What's the name of your act? Do you have a social media link? Tell us a little bit about yourself Where else have you performed? You know that kind of thing. So we collect that information our team Evaluates all of that a lot of it comes from word-of-mouth to like in any business, you know your network I know that once you establish some credibility with some of the booking agencies around the country You know, they then start calling you and sending you emails saying, hey, we have one of our rosters. It's gonna be within striking distance of Ohio, you know, on a certain date. So it works all of those ways.
Juravich: What about for the local artists who are just starting out, maybe figuring things out? Do you pivot them to the happening hour shows too? Is that a good place to start?
Jackson: Sometimes, it depends on the stage of their career. I think that we also have some nights where there are some up and coming artists and we try to theme a little bit of those kind of things, especially in different genres. So for instance, on our happening hour on Wednesday, we have an alliance with the Columbus Blues Alliance. And so some of the up andcoming blues acts might perform there. And little jam sessions, we have a jazz jam session with some of up and come jazz artists. So usually that way, but sometimes we take a chance with a ticketed show with someone who is kind of unknown, but we really believe in, we think has the right chemistry and stage presence, all that stuff.
Juravich: What, where do you think your place is in the Columbus music scene? Um, what, like, you know, do you ever, you know, I'm asking you like, what's your place in this world? Like, um, what what, how do you feel about the Columbus music scene and Natalie's little, little niche of it?
Jackson: Well, I think back 14 years ago, I think we were trying to fill the void that I felt was missing once, places like Little Brothers and Thirsty Ear and some of those places that I used to frequent were no longer in business. And so again, it was just the diversity of the different types of music. So, and I think our niche there was, and originally it was a little bit more towards maybe an older audience. That had a little bit more disposable income and I felt like at my age too, I knew more about that kind of music. Whereas now we're really trying to get away from being pigeonholed that way. So we're actively seeking more indie rock acts, some younger demographics, standing room shows, things like that that I think in this next year there's gonna be a shift a little bit in some of our programming. But to really answer your question, I just think we've just tried to develop our own niche with people trusting us. Uh... Being willing to to listen to an act that maybe they'd never heard of but think well you know Natalie does a good job in in selection and their selection process so it's probably pretty good
Juravich: Do you have music every single night? Is it always booked?
Jackson: We're normally closed Monday and Tuesday. We actually had a show last night, so occasionally on mostly a touring act, can only do one of those dates, but we normally, every Wednesday through Sunday, we have three shows a night.
Juravich: All right. And just to end on, we kind of, you know, skipped over talking about the pizza in detail, but I mean, you used to call yourself Natalie's coal fire, coal, coal fired pizza. Tell me about the Pizza. What? Tell me. About this cold.
Jackson: Well, we don't use the coal anymore, so when we opened the second location, we decided let's shift to wood. Yeah, there you go. And have a little bit of gas boost to start everything. And so, you know, we kind of left that behind. So Natalie's...
Juravich: So Natalie's wood-fired pizza.
Jackson: Yeah, but it's the same basic recipe. We still use a sourdough starter in our dough. We still have some of the same recipes and very hot fire and a little bit of a crispy crust on it and everything's fresh.
Juravich: Yeah. And most shows, you mentioned that you have some standing shows. So, but, but most shows are seated and you can order the pizza, right?
Jackson: Yeah, and we also have space. So now we have an enclosed patio, we have our cocktail lounge called I Like It Like That, and we actually do a monthly music series there as well. So there are spaces that people can come just to have food, and maybe sometimes someone on a waiting list, it's a sold out show, but maybe something opens up.
Juravich: We have been talking about the Columbus Music Venue and restaurant, Natalie's, with Natalie's co-owner, Charlie Jackson. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks. And coming up, we're gonna talk to a nonprofit that's helping musicians succeed. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Getting started in the music industry is a struggle for almost all musicians. Whether it be the cost or the accessibility, it's not easy. Music Columbus, a nonprofit organization, is helping musicians and those wanting to be in the industry pursue their dreams. Here to tell us more is Amy Holihan, Executive Director of Music Columbus. Thanks for being here, Amy.
Amy Holihan: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Juravich: So the mission of Music Columbus is to nurture a community where people can prosper in the business of music while contributing to Columbus's overall cultural and economic growth. So tell me about how local music and the local music industry is a part of the local economy. Tell me about that connection and your mission.
Holihan: Yeah, so yes, exactly. That's our mission. We're really here to be the connector of all things music, power that ecosystem where music can thrive. And we did an economic impact study last year that showed that the music economy here in Columbus alone is worth $1.3 billion to just quantify what we've been saying all along, that our musicians, our small businesses. Our venues are vital economic contributors to our community, and so we have that value number to put to it, and I think it got a lot of people talking.
Juravich: So one of the programs you have is called Better Together Music Incubator. And so it pretty much provides all the skills someone needs to succeed in the music industry. Tell me what inspired this particular program. You have lots of programs, but tell me about the Better Together music incubator. Sure, yeah.
Holihan: That one is starting its fourth session this year, which we basically spend five months with a small group of 10 artists that are, they've created their sound, they've recorded some music, they're now at this level where they just need extra support because the industry is so DIY, hard to navigate, and they need to understand that they are small entrepreneurs, small business entrepreneurs. They need to be maybe coached on how to make sure their registrations are good so they can license their music. Day. Get opportunities to record and release a new project. And it really came about because we understand that the music industry has changed a lot and it's continuously changing year over year. And there's so much now that a musician has to navigate and we don't think they should have to do it alone because there's much to learn and mentorship and connections can just be that factor that they need to make their project come to life.
Juravich: The program teaches skills like financing, licensing, marketing. Why are those important skills for a musician to have? You have to have the business skills, not just the music skills.
Holihan: Yeah, exactly. Because as I said, it's a different industry than it was 20 years ago. And the labels that existed then that might have found an artist really early are waiting to see what an artist can do on their own with streaming and social media and the ways that they can market themselves. So they need to have a good understanding of how they are going to share their music. Before they might get other opportunities. So we're all about having them fully understand that picture, not just the music they're creating, but the story they're telling with their own brand and how they can make sure that they know where they're bringing in income and where they can spend it responsibly and start to make some income off of that so they can build a living.
Juravich: Did you find that there was a lot of lack of business skills in musicians? They had great talent, but they couldn't progress in the industry because of the business side.
Holihan: Yeah, I think it's just they really are so passionate about their music that they want to spend all their time making their music, which is totally understandable. But no matter what, that base level understanding, even if down the line they have a business manager who takes over their finances and can help them with that, it's always good to have a base level understanding to make sure that you are aware of how your money is being spent and how you're making money. And you understand just how you are investing that in your own. Your own livelihood. So yeah, I think that there's just always opportunity to learn, but they all have been so great and excited to come away with this new understanding of all these pieces of the music industry.
Juravich: And the incubator works with some like vocals and songwriting skills too, right? Like you're not just doing the business side, yeah.
Holihan: No, yeah, we call it both entrepreneurial and artist development. So that other piece, again, investment in these artists as a whole. So we do focus on the music part as well. They get songwriting sessions through Musicology, who generously donates those. And then they work with Jesse Henry, who's an amazing local artist here. And he helps with songwriting session. So they learn about how to write songs. And then we focus on their visual. Identity to, we workshop their photo shoots that they have some assets to be able to market themselves with. And then they get some recording time. So they learn all about the production of music and then they spend two days in a studio working on their new project.
Juravich: Wow, do you have any outcomes of this program? I mean, can you mention someone who's been through it or anything like that? Yeah.
Holihan: Absolutely. We have some amazing artists that have been through it. Kennedy Hall is an artist from last year who's out performing all the time. I just saw Super Luck, which is Miguel Acero. He was performing with Cordial Sins, which was another band I love. The thing that really has been a result is these artists are now tapped into opportunities in the local scene. So they're out performing more, they have momentum to you know, understand how they can release a project and get some traction with storytelling press, et cetera. So we've seen a lot of that, which is just amazing.
Juravich: Emerging musicians often have trouble booking shows, various reasons, there's costs, there's venues, not knowing them. To help these musicians, you created The Unheard. Tell me about that program.
Holihan: Yeah so that was one of our early programs that is sort of the precursor to the incubator where again emerging artists who maybe haven't really had the chance to perform at a formal music venue this is their chance to get on that stage so our first one this year is going to be at ace of cups which is a renowned local independent venue here and these artists get the professional treatment often it's their first professional paycheck as a musician So we pay them, we... We record it on video so that they have a live recording, which is often a key marketing asset for them to go out and book more shows, right? Other venues wanna see what their live show looks like and we give them photos as well. So that is essential for them to really tap in to the rest of the opportunities they can get. And then the really cool thing that's come out of those is the collaboration of the artists that are on the stage together. So we've seen a lot, We usually put three acts on stage on a given night. And a lot of those acts have gone on to bookshows together. They become friends. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the Columbus music industry with Amy Hallahan, the executive director of Music Columbus. So we've been talking about just one part of the music industry, which is the musicians, but there's another very important part of the musical industry. It's the people who make it possible for the musicians. You have a program called Earn As You Learn, which is basically an internship for people into various aspects of the industry, like audio production, event planning. Even instrument stores. So tell me about that aspect of what you do, the people who are not the musicians, but around them.
Holihan: Yeah, so we really are about the whole ecosystem of music. And as you said, there's just as many people behind the scenes that are making these shows come to life, that are producing music, and doing radio stations work so We have a program that we place interns at various small music businesses around Columbus, and we offer compensation to the interns to be mentored by a leader at that organization. So like Natalie's, Charlie, actually they have an intern and they've had an intern several summers now that works with them to learn either the live production or marketing. Various aspects of their business and they're mentored by someone at Natalie's who spends time investing in them to Show them the ropes of the music business and it's been incredible this year We got 96 applicants for 12 internship spots So it's our goal to definitely continue to grow that program because we see that there's a real interest in this creative work that you get to do.
Juravich: Are the interns college-age students? Like, who are the interns?
Holihan: Yeah, so 18 and up, often college students are just graduated high school and they're just interested in working in the music of business and we have a rate of 50% placement after the program that go on to continue working with their mentor organization. So it's been really successful. It's it's one of my favorite programs that we do
Juravich: You mentioned that Music Columbus did the Economic Impact Study. It was called Sound Investment, the economic impact of music in Columbus. The study found some very impressive things. I mean, I read, you know, $418 million, which 5% of total tourism is attributed to music. So is that, are you talking like national acts with that number, the 418? Okay, yeah, I was like if local the 418 is a lot for local. Okay, so you're talking that just music coming and picking this city is Bringing 418 million dollars in tourism to the city. Is that right?
Holihan: Music at every level, but yes, it does include our biggest shows at the SHU, at The Shot, the arenas and festivals. So our Buckeye Country Music Superfest. But yeah, I mean, tourism of music is a huge business and people are traveling wherever to go see their favorite artists. And so when we have those big artists come through, that's a real boon to people coming into our city to experience everything we have to offer, not just the concert, but... You know, staying in hotel rooms, going out to eat, going shopping, et cetera. So we are an industry that is integrated into every other part of our civic life here in Columbus. And that was a point we just wanted to highlight is that, you know music is big business and often we only think about those arena shows, but there's that and then there's, we have more than 40 independent small venues that are doing that work every night like Natalie's that is also incredibly essential to that number.
Juravich: Yeah, OK, so tell me about tell me that number again of the local number you gave me it earlier the
Holihan: Well, 1.3 billion is the overall. Yeah. I don't know that I pulled out the local number, but yeah.
Juravich: So, but you just said that there are 40 venues. Oh, yes. Over 40.
Holihan: Oh yes, over 40 venues.
Juravich: So so 40 local music venues define a local music venue. What does that mean if music is their primary focus?
Holihan: Yeah, so if they are offering music multiple nights a week, whether it's ticketed or free, and that is a primary goal of theirs to be offering music, then they are considered part of that independent music scene. And yeah, we have more than 40. We have a live music trail in partnership with Experience Columbus where people can go and see all those venues and go and visit them, check in, win a t-shirt. And so, yeah, I think you can find music any night of the week, and it's incredible. That's, I mean, that's the sign that we're a city that really loves music.
Juravich: Do you know if the 40 venues is that like more or less than 10, 10 years ago? Did you look at like the, did you look at any trend numbers for how many venues we used to have, or we have now or anything like that?
Holihan: Haven't really looked at that closely but I know we've had some closures in the past but we've have several open as well so I think we're in a good place I think what we can do really is talk about how to strengthen our venues and make sure that they are in a place to continue thriving into the future and that means people going out and seeing live music we know that it hasn't fully recovered post-pandemic so we're we're really thinking about how we can support audience growth in the future through collective marketing Talking with the venues a lot about how we can work together to elevate just the conversation around music and get people to really have it at the top of mind when they're thinking about, hey, what should I do tonight?
Juravich: So another key statistic from your study is that local musicians on average derive one fifth of their income from music. So that means most of these musicians that you're talking about have full time jobs, right? Like this music is not their full time job. Talk to me about that, about doing music on the side but wanting it to not be on the site, I guess. Yeah.
Holihan: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's part of what we want to also shed light on is while this 1.3 billion number is exciting and shows you just the power of music, there's also the fact that a lot of our musicians can't make a living doing music right now and they want to. And so that's another thing we're building is, you know, the income streams that musicians can make money off of have changed. They've changed a lot in the past. And so like touring is much harder. And you're not going to make much money off of streaming, but you can make money off of merchandise or licensing your music into film and TV. So we're really educating musicians about those opportunities to build out their income streams. And the goal that we have is that more and more musicians can increase that percentage of their income. Really, if that's their goal to become a full-time musician, they are able to access those opportunities to do so. So yeah, that's something we're really focused on.
Juravich: What is an unexpected challenge for a local musician here in Columbus that maybe people listening might not be aware of?
Holihan: Oh, that's a great question. I just think that people maybe just don't realize that our music scene and the musicians that are out performing are not going to be there if people don't go out and hear the music, right? And so I think sometimes we take for granted that musicians will play for free or that They do it for the exposure. And they're living, working, small businesses, and in order for them to continue to be, you know, a proud part of our community, we all need to show up and be there and supportive of our local music scene. So I always encourage people to check out a local venue, check out local musician, because I do think we take a lot of pride in that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're. Going out and putting our money where that pride is. And so I encourage people to think of that.
Juravich: We only have a minute left, but I talked with Walker Evans from Columbus Underground earlier in the program, and he was saying that it's unfortunate, but like social media algorithms, even if you follow a band, you might not know a band has a show coming up because it just doesn't show it to you. So what would you recommend to people listening right now of how they know, like what's your source to know when shows are and who's performing where and when?
Holihan: Yeah, absolutely. That is a common challenge. We have so much information coming at us. So I say follow Music Columbus on social media because we often share a lot of what's going on in the community. Also the classic cringe.com has Walker mentioned that has local music listed all the time. Yep. Certainly for bigger shows checking out GCAC or Experience Columbus's calendars will get you on that radar as well. But we're talking collectively with all the venues about how we can sort of approach that challenge right now. Break through the algorithm. Exactly, break through the algorithm and really like capture people's attention with this messaging, so.
Juravich: Well, when you figure it out, you let me know, because I'm trying to break through the algorithm too. We've been talking about the Columbus music industry with Amy Holihan, Executive Director of Music Columbus. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. You've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich. Thanks for joining us.