Accessory Dwelling Units, better known as ADU's, are small, self-contained residential units that can be attached to a home or built as a separate structure, often as a small apartment or in-law suite.
Columbus has released a new handbook for residents in building one on their property, though under current city code, building one could be very expensive.
We’re looking at the role ADU's could play in the need for housing here in Columbus.
Guests:
- Brent Warren, reporter, Columbus Underground
- Alison Goebel, executive director, Greater Ohio Policy Center
- Otto Beatty, former Columbus City Councilmember
- Jenny Carlson, executive director, Ohio AARP
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Tiny homes, duplexes, and townhouses are some of the ways cities are addressing housing issues. Another solution could be as close as your own backyard. Accessory dwelling units, known as ADUs. These are small, self-contained residential units that can be attached to a home or built as a separate structure, often as small apartments or in-law suites. The city of Columbus has released an updated ADU handbook for residents interested in building one. And we're talking about the role of ADUs and what role they could play in Columbus housing this hour. We begin our conversation with Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren. Welcome back to All Sides Brent.
Brent Warren: Thanks for having me.
Juravich: All right, let's start by describing an accessory dwelling unit, an ADU. What can they look like typically? I know that they can, there's a whole range. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Warren: Yeah, and there's also a lot of jargon as usual for you know housing things But I mean basically it's just a smaller housing unit built on the same lot as an existing home And you see those in Columbus if you go to Like Old Town East for instance You'll see those beautiful mansions like on Brighton and then you go the alley and there is another big Nice looking structure that they call a carriage house and that has you know the way those are used today Usually you have cars. In the garage on the first floor and then you have living space above it. So those are either rented out as a separate unit or they're Airbnb or they are just like a mother-in-law lives there or something. So you see them in historic neighborhoods in Columbus. It's so funny. I just was thinking last night, we think of this as like the term is new. You know, we haven't been using that term ADU, like, since, you know, like in the 80s, I remember my... Aunt and uncle in Clintonville, they turned their garage into a small apartment for my grandmother.
Juravich: So yeah, a grandma's.
Warren: Grandma apartment, grandma suite, yeah. And I never thought of that, oh, we had an ADU in my family. I just didn't really thought of it. No one called it an AD. Yes, we didn't call it that. People have been doing this for decades. It's sort of a standard type of housing arrangement. But what's new is now I think you have a lot of cities trying to encourage the building of more of them as a way to increase housing in existing neighborhoods without tearing anything down and without sort of affecting the character of the neighborhood.
Juravich: Okay. So they have requirements to be an actual ADU. They have to have a kitchen and a bathroom and a sleeping area, right? Like they have to actually be an apartment. It can't just be an extra room on your house. There's a difference between an addition and an actual dwelling unit, right. And then do you know how long Columbus has been zoned to allow for accessory dwelling units? I mean, if it dates back to carriage houses, yeah. Well
Warren: Well, okay, the difference is actually it's been very recent. It was like last fall that city council passed the legislation to officially legalize ADUs in residential districts in Columbus. And that's on the zoning side. So.
Juravich: So they weren't legal before?
Warren: They weren't generally legal before, so what that means is you would have to go through a rezoning process to build one, which is just another step in the process.
Juravich: Or not get caught building. Yes.
Warren: Yes, exactly. And so the city... Not in...
Juravich: I didn't say that on the radio, oh no, yeah.
Warren: The city has eliminated that barrier, but as I think we'll talk about, it's still not exactly easy to build one of these things. There's still a lot of hoops you've got to jump through.
Juravich: Okay, well, and then one other thing that your article mentioned is that Columbus released a handbook. It's basically an ADU handbook for city residents who want to build one. But you wrote in your article that the handbook was posted online with little fanfare. Does Does that surprise you?
Warren: Well, a little bit. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not saying there's anything nefarious involved. I didn't get a press release. It doesn't seem like it was promoted very much, but it is something that some people at the city have been working on for a while and now there's this really useful handbook out there for anybody who's interested in doing this. It has really a lot of detailed information about what you need to think about how you go about building one of these. It's. It's really a helpful document.
Juravich: Okay, so yeah, so what are some of the key updates that necessitated the need for a handbook? I mean, basically, you just said that we legalized them, so I guess we didn't even have a hand book before.
Warren: No, no, there is no handbook.
Juravich: OK.
Warren: And yeah, it was I mean, you're just kind of on your own. It's like if you do, if you just put an addition on your house, you have to go through all these, you know, you have to get building permits and you have. So you'll still have to do all of those things to build ADU. What the city did was eliminate for, in most cases, the requirement that you would also have to go through the zoning process to rezone.
Juravich: Okay, so they basically zoned the entire city to allow these, right, but they still have to get a permit because every lot in the city can't be big enough, right? To have one of these, I guess.
Warren: No, that's true. Lots are all different sizes, so it gets pretty complicated and pretty fast. But you can also have internal ADUs. So like you could convert your attic into, you know, you could put a bathroom in a kitchen in your third floor and provide a separate entrance, you know like outdoor staircase or something. And that's also an ADU, as long as it's a separate unit, you
Juravich: Okay, so it has to have a kitchen, bathroom, sleeping area and its own entrance to be one?
Warren: I think so, yeah.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about updates for the building of accessory dwelling units in Columbus. And we're talking with Brent Warren, reporter for Columbus Underground. So ADUs in theory should be easier to build because Columbus basically legalized this, maybe and also relaxed some code so that the zoning isn't as difficult. There's still the permitting process. But your article says that some are saying it didn't go far enough. So, what are advocates saying about ADUs and more changes needed?
Warren: Well, I think they've seen what other places have done. One of the council hearings they mentioned, one of the speakers mentioned Charlotte, which I think has like a $80,000 forgivable loan for homeowners, so you can apply for that. Because these things are not cheap, to build a whole new unit on your property is, it's not as expensive as building a full house, but it's still, it's a lot of money. So there's still that huge barrier. You know, like not many people can afford. You know, $80,000 or $100,000 to build one of these things on their lot. So I think the idea is maybe there's more that the city could do to, uh, provide some incentives or some sort of relief for homeowners who want to build one.
Juravich: Well, and in nowadays, getting a loan is not the easiest thing in the world, too. So could the city find some banks to work with to make loans easier?
Warren: Yeah and actually I was looking back at just the articles we've done on this topic. In 2024 the City Council held a hearing about a pilot program that would have provided some sort of financial incentive for homeowners to build an ADU, the kind of thing that you would apply for and you could sort of win a grant or a forgivable loan. But I haven't heard anything about that since then. So I don't think that went anywhere. I don't know if that's still on the table as something that might happen. We'll have to see I guess.
Juravich: And then the other, so we're gonna talk about this in more detail in the next part of the show, because we have an expert coming on, but just to tease it a little bit, another problem that has come up is that not only are these expensive to build, but the city's making it more expensive because of some sewer and plumbing codes. Can you just give us a little primer on that?
Warren: Yeah, well, I mean, that's where it gets so complicated because you're building in these 100-year-old neighborhoods. So you run into things like very old sewer lines. And the city has regulations about how these ADUs are supposed to connect to the sewer line. And I think your next guest will talk about how the way the city defines these requirements, it makes it a lot more expensive than it is in some other places.
Juravich: Yeah. Okay. We'll learn about that in a few minutes, but it is, I'm going to tease it. It's a lot more expensive because of the way the city code is written or interpreted right now. But the idea of having this handbook, city council legalizing ADUs, making the zoning easier, it's because it's supposed to be a piece of the puzzle of solving Columbus's housing crisis, right? Tell me more about that.
Warren: Well, this is part of, you know, the city has been going through this zone in process. That's what they call it for rewriting their zoning code. And the first phase was focused on major corridors. And that's where a lot of the housing is supposed to be going. So they've made it legal to build much taller buildings on some of our big streets than it was before and made it easier to build those buildings. The second phase, which is what they're working on now. Looks at a bunch of different kind of properties like bigger industrial properties. That actually covers, I think the city is saying about 40% of the city will be covered in that second phase which is due I think this fall to be voted on.
Juravich: Allowing industrial properties to become housing or what do you mean?
Warren: It's a little more complicated than that, because it's a lot of sort of bigger properties that aren't fully defined now. And some of them it'll allow more housing on, but not like a blanket thing where all industrial will have. It's not like that. And I haven't dug into the details on that. I think that's coming. That's the next phase. But then next year, they've said, maybe next year they'll get to rethinking how residential areas are zoned and in other places like Minneapolis, it was kind of one of the first examples where they eliminated single family zoning and they made it so you could build, kind of by right, you could a duplex or a triplex in single family neighborhoods. And that is something they haven't tackled yet in Columbus and I think since they know that's still maybe a year or two off, I think the ADU piece was something that certain people said, okay, here's something we could do in the meantime before we tackle the residential. Zones in general, we can say we can make it easier to build ADUs.
Juravich: So if a neighborhood is zoned as a single family home, you're literally not allowed to build a duplex.
Warren: You would have to go through the zoning process and rezone to build a duplex. I see.
Juravich: So if ADUs are just like a piece of the puzzle, then that was something they could legalize while they're working on all of this other stuff.
Warren: Yeah, and it's just a piece of it. Yeah, something they could do kind of a little quicker than the full thing
Juravich: Okay. Later in the hour, we're going to talk to the city council member who's a former city council member now who was really pushing for this about why he wanted them. And then we're also going to talk AARP because we mentioned a couple of times, you know, the mother-in-law suite, the grandma suite. So this is being promoted as a way to help keep an elderly family member in the home, but maybe not like near you, right? Yeah.
Warren: Right? Yeah, it's yeah.
Juravich: Okay, so have you looked into any other cities in the country? Is Columbus using it as a model for ADUs or did they look other places to help develop this handbook or anything like that? What cities are doing this well?
Warren: Yeah, well, I know the company they hired to do to the consultant who actually produced the handbook has done this work like all over the country. So I think they're pretty familiar with the other models in different places. Like I mentioned, the Charlotte piece where they actually provide a financial incentive to build these, that's something that I know people in Columbus have looked at, but I don't know where that stands right now. If you look at like Across the country, California, state-wide, legalized ADUs. And that had a big impact, especially in so many of the very expensive cities in California. They've seen a real boom in the construction of ADUs
Juravich: Well, just to end on, do you know if ADUs can be prefabricated, like made off-site, little tiny homes and like trucked in and just like plopped in your backyard? Have you heard of that?
Warren: Oh yeah, there's companies doing that. I think, again, it tends to be a little more complicated than people think. I'm making it sound so easy, yeah. It is a cool idea. There's definitely prefab housing. I mean, we have, right in Columbus, we have a housing factory, the Connect housing facility that Brad DeHays built off of Westerville Road. They're making those little housing units right now. Now, what he's doing with those is generally turning them into apartment buildings. But there's no reason you can't also like that kind of thing you could just put in someone's backyard
Juravich: Yeah. We did a show on like a tiny home community that opened somewhere in Columbus. And it's, and they like, they built them all and they all look the same and they're all little tiny homes. But I, so I was picturing a small, even smaller version of that being put in someone's backyard.
Warren: Oh yeah, that exists, it's happening.
Juravich: And is it happening yet in Columbus or is this still really new?
Warren: Uh, well, if I say no, I'm sure somebody will somebody's going to call you somewhere. I'm doing it right now.
Juravich: Well, we'll have to do an update, but we have been speaking with Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren about ADU's accessory dwelling units as a way to help with Columbus housing. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks for having me. And coming up, we're going to talk about a common barrier for homeowners that would like to build an ADU, and it's something you don't even see. It's the sewer pipes. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. The City of Columbus has released a new handbook for accessory dwelling units, better known as ADUs. However, sewer service is a common barrier for homeowners looking to build a separate living space on their property. The Greater Ohio Policy Center has released a report outlining the ADU sewer requirements in Columbus. They compared Columbus City Code to several other cities. And found some shocking differences that could result in tens of thousands of dollars in additional costs. To tell us about those requirements is Alison Goebel, executive director of the Greater Ohio Policy Center. Welcome to All Sides, Alison.
Alison Goebel: Thanks Amy, thanks for having us.
Juravich: So what is it about connecting a sewer service that makes it a common barrier? Like, why does this become so expensive so quickly with the sewer service?
Goebel: I know, you wouldn't think this is it, but it is. So in Columbus, right now City Code has the accessory dwelling unit, which is like a granny flat or a little apartment above the garage. You have to have its own sewer line, either going to a common line that's shared with the main house or a line that goes directly to the sewer. And in much of Columbus, that means that you're gonna have to dig up a yard, maybe a driveway. Put run in the line and then repave the driveway, redo the yard. And so that cost of just digging up all that extra on the property is where the extra cost really starts to add up.
Juravich: So what would make it cheaper though? Which where is the sewer line go in cities where it's not that expensive?
Goebel: Yeah. So in the research that we did, we looked at other places where ADUs are being built to scale. So like we're seeing hundreds are being billed or permitted. And what we see is that in those places, those cities allow the ADU to run the sewer line from the ADUs into the main house. And then from the main house, all sewage and wastewater goes out to the main sewer on the road. And so that's just like, you know, from your backyard garage to your main house might be a 50 foot. You know distance and it's just going to be in the yard And so running that smaller pipe from the adu to the house can be about six or seven thousand dollars on average And not maybe the fifty or sixty thousand you might look at if you have to remove a driveway and reinstall it If so, this is a big difference fifty to sixty thousand dollars I mean we're talking about magnitudes here. These are not exact numbers. Don't quote me, right? Yeah, that is what we understood from interviews that we did with architects and builders and contractors here in Columbus is that that would be about the price differential. So almost a 90 percent difference. Did you figure out why Columbus City Code is written the way it is? So we did do interviews with city staff and I want to acknowledge just right now like city staff has been extremely responsive and helpful to us. So, and our purpose here was not to single out Columbus, but really look at it as a representative city. In Ohio because many other cities have very similar codes. What it is is that the way that the code is written gives staff concern that they can't do that EDU to main house sort of connection. And that the the way the code is currently written at the city level requires, because it is a quote unquote separate housing unit, has to have its own line into the main sewer line. The, in other places, again, there's differences there. The thing, what is very interesting to us is that. Um, city staff also cited the state's plumbing code and Ohio's plumbing code is exactly the same as what you find in Michigan and Texas and other states where we are seeing 80 years being built to scale. So city staff are kind of interpreting the state code maybe in kind of risk adverse ways, and then also there's some language within the city's code itself that kind of prevents right now, at least that connection from the ADU straight into the main house.
Juravich: So, the other cities you looked at, are they similar in size or age to Columbus? Do they have the same pipes? Yeah, no, that's a great question.
Goebel: Yeah, so we looked at Ann Arbor, which, while smaller, certainly has housing stock very similar in age as Columbus, we looked in Austin, Boston, and then also, I believe, Portland.
Juravich: So Boston would be older. Austin would be maybe younger, but growing faster. Yeah, so a little bit different types of pipes. So did you find out whether the city, I guess I'm asking if it's comparable in terms of age. Is it because of the age of the city sewer system that they want it connected in a certain way?
Goebel: So what we understand from Columbus and, again, other cities that have very similar codes in Ohio, it's less about the age of the sewer line, again because what we're talking about really is kind of what is on your private property, what the homeowner is responsible for. Their concern, when we kind of probed at this a little more, one, that you could have sewer backup into the ADU or the main house, right, if the two are connected. Which in my mind is sort of like, well, that's just a risk that you take, right? But also it's probably cheaper to clean out every few years than putting in a new driveway. So there's this backup question. The second concern that they have is that if the homeowner ever went to, in the future, wanted to sell the ADU separate from the main house, you couldn't do that because they were connected through that sewer line.
Juravich: And again, it's sort of like... Who would do that? Okay. Maybe someone would want to sell it separately, but that's interesting. Okay.
Goebel: Right. And if you as a homeowner or someone who's seeking to buy a home, found out like this was sort of a package deal, you know, then you would make you like on the free market when we could decision on if you wanted to buy that home or not. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. So that felt like something that we could overcome.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7NPR News and we are talking about the sewer requirements for building an accessory dwelling unit, also known as an ADU, in Columbus with Allison Goble, executive director of the Greater Ohio Policy Center. So you said you met with city officials, you said they were very open and honest and discussing it with you. Are they willing to change it?
Goebel: Yeah, that's a great question. So our purpose with this was really just to kind of shine a light and really understand sort of what we had been hearing anecdotally, like, oh, the sewer costs or ADUs are really what's prohibiting construction. So we wanted to really like kind of test that and then see exactly what we're looking at. My sense based on some of the conversations we've had with city staff is that they are interested, they're willing to think about it, but there are just so many other priorities ahead of on the list to this, that like, you know, they will get to it at a time and time, but there are some other key initiatives that they're trying to move forward through like zone in and other items, right? Kind of really big scale housing strategies. And so this is, it's not that they are not interested, it's just that they don't have the bandwidth at the moment.
Juravich: Hmm. Interesting. Well, but the idea of Columbus facing a housing crisis and needing more places to put people, that's kind of why I thought they relaxed some requirements so that ADUs are now easier to build, right? You can put one in your backyard without going through like a 20-year permitting process now, or you can put it on top of your garage, and they're not going to be as mad at you about the height. They like relax some of that, right. So they relax certain things, but maybe, but not, but they miss the sewer part.
Goebel: That's right. So zoning was adjusted, I think, at the end of last year of 2025. And you can by right build an ADU pretty much anywhere in the city. There's some exceptions anywhere where you could build anywhere from a one to four unit building. So you're right. The zoning is there, but some of these other regulatory components such as the sewer lines have not quite caught up.
Juravich: Did the city staff say that this is also a state problem? Like do they need state code to change to make them feel better with their interpretation?
Goebel: Um, so we noted that Ohio's state code is similar to these other places. So um, you know, I'm not quite sure where we go from there. We have actually spoken with the board of building standards, Ohio's board of building standards. So sort of like, you know, the head cheese, right, um, for building standards in Ohio and raise this and um, the, the executive secretary there said, you know, this is really more of a local issue, but let me think about it, and sort of our ask from our organization was, could you just clarify, maybe it's like through an opinion paper, that we could actually do this, again, based on existing state code. So those are conversations that are in play right now, and we hope to see some positive resolution in the future.
Juravich: The other cities that you looked at, like the Austen's, the Boston's, Ann Arbor's, they allow the sewer pipe to go from the ADU in your backyard into the house. Okay. So have they seen a lot of sewer backup problems or problems with the pipe? Like, does it, you know, like, no? I mean, yeah, I think, like.
Goebel: You would expect. I'm sure if you're going to build a thousand, if you are going to back up every year, but that's just kind of odds. The other component too is that to make the pipe work from the ADU to the main house, you have to have the right slope so that gravity does its job. We're not going to be able to do this in every single lot in Columbus, right, because of sort of grading. But again, like this is something that we could. Adjust to make it much easier to do that development that again the zoning is allowing but these other regulations are maybe creating barriers too.
Juravich: In addition to sewer service, did you find any other common barriers homeowners looking to build an ADU face or is this the biggest cost one?
Goebel: Well, this is the biggest cost, but unless you are very wealthy and can pay for it out of pocket, most people are going to need some sort of financing, right? Like a mortgage, right. And there are just not those types of lending products in central Ohio right now. Banks don't have, so you can go and get like a home mortgage or you can get a, you know, a construction loan for your home. But there's not, there's no clear like here's an ADU loan, right, and so this is also creating problems. Again, the intention of an ADU is that it's going to be a small home, it's probably going to, if you're going to rent, it probably below market rates. So like the margins on this are very small or you're gonna build it and you're gonna move in grandma, right? You still are going to have to somehow pay for that. And it's gonna be expensive unless you have $250,000 or more in your back pocket. And so right now the banking industry in central how it just doesn't have like an easy plug and play product. Again, I think that's going change in the future. But that has also been another barrier that we keep hearing about. Interesting.
Juravich: Okay, so do you know if the other cities you looked at that are ahead of us in the ADU realm, do their banks have loans?
Goebel: So we're about to investigate this right now. We do know that, for example, in the state of Colorado, there is a state program that kind of helps with kind of subsidizing or at least lowering rates for loans. So there are definitely some solutions out there. I think, though, generally, I think there are probably some on the West Coast that, again, we're going to try to nail down and kind of suggest to banks here in central Ohio. But also ADUs are fairly new as a building type generally in the United States. I mean, they've been around for decades and then we kind of stopped building them from the 1950s till recently. And so like the, I think that there's just nationally sort of like, we're all kind of grappling with this with some states and some cities farther ahead than others.
Juravich: Is an ADU just a piece of the puzzle of solving the housing crisis or is this a good way forward?
Goebel: No, no, no. The housing crisis in central Ohio, in Ohio and beyond, right, there is no silver bullet. We talk about silver buckshot. And so this is just one piece of that silver buckshot and so what we like about ADUs is that you can put, quote unquote, gentle density into neighborhoods that are very committed to how their character looks, right? And So putting in an EDU in your back. Yard, putting it on your garage, is not going to dramatically change the character of your neighborhood, but is going to increase units. So we like ADUs for that. But in other neighborhoods and other parts of the state and city, like building, you know, five and six story apartment buildings is the right solution. So you know, it's all dependent on context. And so this is just one of those many pieces of silver buckshot that we think will work. Is so is is the.
Juravich: A good one for Columbus or does Columbus, I mean Columbus needs to build more apartment buildings too right? Yeah.
Goebel: Yes, we also think it's a great solution for our suburbs in central Ohio, right? Where there may be resistance to a five story apartment building, but you have half acre yards, right, where you could easily kind of slip in a little kind of cottage in the back.
Juravich: Okay, does Dublin have sewer codes or Worthington or Grove City? I'm just randomly picking names of places.
Goebel: Yeah. So Bexley and Westerville and Whitehall, among others, are places where code allows for ADU construction. They all have very similar sewer requirements as to Columbus. So the zoning is there. Again, some of these other regulatory pieces need to catch up.
Juravich: Okay, and are you saying that some of the other suburbs don't even allow ADUs at the moment? Correct.
Goebel: Okay. Not by right. You know, you can petition and get variances and eventually maybe build that ADU.
Juravich: You can go through the whole permitting process that takes forever that I talked about earlier. Okay, so Columbus did away with some of the permitting circus, but then the sewer issues still there. And so if Columbus changed their sewer line thing, would other cities very probably follow suit.
Goebel: You'd hope. There would certainly be precedent. And it's always easier to kind of copy and paste and modify from another city's ordinances. So we would hope that that would happen.
Juravich: Okay, do you need to go ask Bexley to do it first then if Columbus is going to be too slow?
Goebel: Perhaps, right? Again, our dog in this fight is really just kind of understanding what the challenges are. And so local advocates who are advocating for more housing solutions can pick up this flag. But we think it's, again, for us as an organization, it helps us understand sort of what the state of play is statewide and where the challenges might be statewide. Because everywhere, even outside of central Ohio, is struggling with coming up with quality housing that's affordable. Bye.
Juravich: I guess to end on, if I was building an accessory dwelling unit right now, because Columbus allows me to, and I had to tear up my whole entire yard and my driveway to put in this pipe, and then two years from now Columbus changed the code, I would be so upset. But I guess- It's progress. It's a progress. Okay. All right. So people can still, they can build them now. They're just going to have to have the longer sewer line. Or they should get a plumber to really talk to them about it before they start venturing down this road.
Goebel: Yes, exactly. You can do it. You just have to be aware that the cost may be a little higher than initially anticipated. So before you do that, I'd like to ask you
Juravich: if you are excited about this idea, hire a plumber first before you get too excited to find out how long, where your sewer line goes, right? Exactly. Okay, I'm sure everyone's sewer line goes in a different direction.
Goebel: You can't even imagine where some of them go
Juravich: We've been talking about how sewer requirements and codes in Columbus make building an accessory dwelling unit cost prohibitive for some. And we've been speaking with Alison Goble, executive director of the Greater Ohio Policy Center. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks so much, Amy. And coming up, we're going to talk with a former city councilman who is a big advocate for ADUs and we'll learn why they can be helpful for our aging population. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News. You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. The city of Columbus has released a new handbook for accessory dwelling units, better known as ADUs. The small self-contained residential units can be attached to a home or built as a separate structure, often as a small apartment or an in-law suite. We're talking about the role ADUs can play in the city's need for more housing. And we are joined right now by Jenny Carlson, executive director of Ohio AARP. Welcome back to All Sides, Jenny.
Jenny Carlson: Well, thank you for having me.
Juravich: And also with us is former Columbus City Councilman Otto Beatty, who has been an advocate for ADUs. Welcome to All Sides Otto.
Otto Beatty: Glad to be here.
Juravich: So Otto, let's start with you. You advocated for the legislation to make it easier to build an ADU in Columbus. I mean, basically you legalized ADUs in residential neighborhoods. Why did you wanna see them?
Beatty: Well, I had both a professional and personal interest on the issue. From a professional standpoint, I am a attorney, developer, and very interested in housing solutions. And from a personal level, I have the experience of relocating my 88-year-old mother from her condo in Grandview to an ADU, which my sister built at her home.
Juravich: Okay, in this.
Beatty: In the city of Gahanna actually.
Juravich: Oh, and Gehanna. Okay. Did she have a lot of zoning hoops to jump through, though, to get it built or? She did, but it was so worth it. Okay, it was worth it, so then you realized you wanted to make this possible, easier for residents of the city of Columbus?
Beatty: Yes, absolutely.
Juravich: Okay. And do you think it was a little short-sighted that Columbus didn't basically allow ADUs without jumping through a lot of hoops, basically, like in the past?
Beatty: Well, not necessarily. First of all, we all know that ADUs, they just weren't called ADUs existed in our city for several decades. And they also were allowed in certain areas of the city. As you know, the ADUs are governed by the zoning code, which Columbus is going through the process of renewing its 70-year-old zoning code.
Beatty: So this was actually an opportunity to accelerate a portion of that renewal of the zoning code to allow this type of product. And even though there were certain barriers to building ADUs, in the previous five years, 110 were approved and built. So I know your earlier guest talked about some of the burdens and the additional hearings and everything that you had to go through. People were still willing to go through it. So we just wanted to provide a path to allow it to be easier but we also did something also very important. We actually had ADUs now were recognized in our zoning code and we provided guidelines to give people a framework to build ADUs by right in all residential neighborhoods and all apartment zoning districts as well.
Juravich: Okay. Well, we'll talk more about that and the handbook that you helped to develop. But Jenny, I wanted to bring you into the conversation. You provided supportive testimony to Columbus City Council when the ordinance for ADUs was voted on. It passed 9-0. But why did you come and wanted to provide that testimony? What are the benefits of ADUs for older citizens in Ohio.
Carlson: Well, there's significant benefits for ADUs for older Ohioans. I think at first, there is 2.5 million caregivers across the state of Ohio. And typically, those are events that you don't plan for, right? You've got sandwich generation caregivers where you're providing care to kids, and you might have that intergenerational household where you are also providing to a loved one. Caregiver like what the example what we just heard about you know taking care of a loved one and an aging parent. Caregiving looks different. No two caregiving scenarios are the same and so ADU AARP has been in this space for 26 years. And so when we got the opportunity to sit down and talk about the legislative initiatives the zoning issues within the Columbus area we brought in technical assistance. AARP was able to bring in national expertise because of our strong history we've had in changing zoning laws across the nation. We brought technical assistance to look at what are the zoning issues, what are their barriers, and then we were able to come in and testify. The backbone to our organization, we're strong advocates. We wanna make sure that we're advocating for individuals to age in place. And part of that is being able to age in place the way that you would want to age. And so strong defender of that, advancing public policy. We were able to help build out coalitions, help to spread the word about the value of ADUs. ADUs are significant. And when you think about our changing lifestyles, our lifestyled are completely changing all the time. But our housing stock is not.
Juravich: Well, yeah, and I hadn't thought of what you just said. I mean, the ADU will benefit the older person who's moving into it, but it benefits the caregiver, too, to be closer rather than having to drive across town every single day to help out, right?
Carlson: That's right. And so when you think about ADUs, you can think about a carriage house, a small cottage, a mother-in-law suite, or even an apartment in a garage. And so whatever that looks like, it's different. And so ADUs is that conduit helping to provide housing, that flexibility to address ever-changing, evolving lifestyle changes.
Juravich: And Otto, before you left Columbus City Council, did you play a role in getting the new ADU handbook developed?
Beatty: Yes, on the same evening that we passed the zoning code change, we also authorized dollars to the Department of Building and Zoning Services to work with a consultant in order to create this particular guidebook for citizens. And the reason that we did that is unlike the other aspects of development, commercial buildings, apartment buildings, most likely an ADU is going to be led by a individual resident at their own home. So we needed something that would speak to lay people who were considering an ADU on their property.
Juravich: Okay. And we mentioned earlier that the handbook was posted online, but the reporter that I was talking to said he didn't really get a press release about it or anything. He just found it by accident. So do you think that maybe the city needs to build some more awareness that maybe this law passed, you can build an ADU easier and the hand book exists?
Beatty: I think that they are probably planning something like that. The handbook just came out in the middle of June. Okay. Yeah. So it is fairly fresh and it was announced in the late fall that that was part of the legislation. And it had a deadline of June the 1st, so.
Juravich: Oh, so it met. Yeah, there you go.
Beatty: So it was announced that it was coming, and many of the advocacy groups, Columbus Board of Realtors, AARP, Convergence and others, knew that this book was coming and also weighed in and had impact on the contents of the particular guidebook.
Juravich: Jenny, do you think that you're gonna like tell your members, you know, to talk with their children and to talk with family members and just basically say, here's this handbook, the zoning has changed, you know, you still have to get a permit, but it's easier to build one of these, are you going to promote it?
Carlson: Absolutely, and that's part of how we effectuate change, sharing resources. We have over 1.5 million members, but we work with everyone in the communities because what's important to us is that we are able to give the tools to individuals, making sure that they're informed about how to age in place so that we have healthier economies of scale. So we have been working with the city. We also do have our own ABCs of ADUs on AARP's website, resources, and we are working with communities across the state to make sure that they're age friendly.
Juravich: And Otto, we talked earlier about the idea that they're, you know, they are still expensive to build. They're not as expensive to build as building a brand new house, obviously, but they aren't cheap. And the reporter we talked to earlier mentioned that in Charlotte, for example, there's loans or grants you can get to help build these. Is that something the city's exploring at all?
Beatty: I believe so. I believe. So this during our legislative process where we had over 70 individuals come in and testify over three hearings. This issue was raised and our research through our legislative research office and individual citizens brought it to our attention that other cities and states that have particular programs. So I'm confident, again, this was the first step, which was taking care of this change to the zoning code. But I'm confidence on a going forward basis, that type of thing will be considered. Not only just grants, other incentives, maybe partnering with banks for certain loans, maybe even a tax abatement for an ADU so the tax basis wouldn't go up.
Juravich: Okay. And in those 70 people who testified, did what we were talking about in our last part of the show, the sewer issue, did that come up at all in the testimony? Or is this a new development learning? No.
Beatty: No. It did come up primarily from a cost standpoint. Again, our legislation dealt with the zoning code, the sewer, the power, the water. Although we had a presentation on that, that is a building code matter. Our legislation just dealt with zoning code.
Juravich: Okay. So, but hearing that because of the way the city interprets code, that the sewer pipe, rather than costing between $5,000 and $10,000, could cost as much as $40,000 to $50,000 or $60,000. Does that give you pause? Do you want to talk with city council about maybe looking at this code.
Beatty: Well, first of all, I know that the Department of Building and Zoning Service has been interacting with the groups that brought the study to everyone's attention and are exploring different ways that this can be accomplished. Again, the professionals from those departments who are looking out for the health, safety, and wear failure of the residents, they know our city the best. I think we all can agree that if a sewer line burst in somebody's backyard because the line was under capacity, that would not lead to a good outcome. So it's being studied and I know that there's been ongoing conversation and there is room for movement.
Juravich: Jenny, what about your organization? I mean, you have a lot of sway with state lawmakers. And what we found out from talking with Allison is a lot other cities have changed this code. They've made it so as long as a plumber deems it okay, the sewer pipe can go through the house and be therefore cheaper to install. What are you thinking when you heard that about what the state and or cities need to look at?
Carlson: Well, there certainly is an opportunity to work the state of Ohio to get clarity on whether or not there's flexibility for the instrumentalities of state government to pursue the ADU legislation as you described. So I'm going to go back. I heard your previous interview and just help to get clear from the state whether or or not it's an opinion, a legal opinion, to clarify that they can move forward. That it's. If there's any gray area, and if there is gray area that needs to be tightened up and corrected, we're the fierce defenders. We're gonna go in and work with the state to try.
Juravich: To effectuate change. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the role accessory dwelling units, also known as ADUs, could play in Columbus housing. We're taking with Jenny Carlson, Executive Director of Ohio AARP, and with former Columbus City Councilman Otto Beatty. So Otto, what do you think needs to be done to see more ADUs built in Columbus? I mean, we got this handbook out, we changed the zoning. Are we going to see hundreds of them popping up in the next few years?
Beatty: I think we're off to a good start. It's come to my attention that since the passage of the legislation, there have been 15 applications. Nine have been, and nine have been approved. When the city of Cincinnati passed their ADU legislation, which is a little different from Columbus, a little bit more restrictive, they only had five. So even in the six months since the legislation has been adopted, we're already off to faster start. And we knew that there was pent up demand, but I think it's going to take. More than just the city or the state. It's also gonna take our financial institutions and also, I also believe that, you know, the business community, the entrepreneurs out there that come up with new ways for innovative housing like maybe modular units or other things can also contribute to more of these being more affordable and more people building.
Juravich: What neighborhoods do you envision, you know, when you drive around the city of Columbus, what neighborhoods do envision seeing a lot of ADUs popping up in?
Beatty: Well, the way that we... Design the legislation, all neighborhoods are eligible, and all neighborhoods have an opportunity to do this. One of the more important things that need to be pointed out is that because of the size, height, location, again, the ADU has to be in the backyard with the exception of a garage conversion. The goal would be, we had a lot of pushback on character of neighborhoods and everything like that, okay, but the goal would If you drove down a street and there were 7 houses and each one had an ADU in the back, driving down the street you wouldn't see those ADUs.
Juravich: Okay
Beatty: So we wanted to give the flexibility to allow anyone that needed this for their objectives, whether it be for a family member, whether it'd be for additional income, whether it would be just to expand their home, that they would be able to do this. So we didn't target any particular neighborhood.
Juravich: Do you know, Jenny, anywhere in Ohio? I mean, Otto just mentioned Cincinnati, already had passed this, but their code is a little bit different. Are ADUs popping up all over Ohio? They are. Okay. They are. Okay.
Carlson: And we're having lots of conversations. For example, we're working very closely with the Mayor's Alliance to help educate. In fact, I was talking to the Finley, the City of Finley Mayor yesterday, in fact, and she said that she just passed her ordinance. She's turning the corner. She's also turning the quarter to adopt age-friendly designation. We as a state are an AARP Ohio age- friendly designation. And that allows us to come in with more resources, to have a real deep lens on working with communities on how to infuse those age-friendly practices so communities can thrive. And so we're going to continue to help educate, have our volunteers out there to work in the local committees to further advance these legislative activities. Otto, what would you like to add?
Beatty: Yes. Of course, as you well know, zoning is all local in Ohio under home rule. It probably will remain very local. So each community has the opportunity and you'll see very varied versions of this. Bexley passed their ADU law probably about 60 days before Columbus. It's very, very different, but they've crafted it best for their community. For instance, They have a moratorium on how many can be built a year They had a restriction on the particular number of ADUs that you could have on a single lot. They had restrictions on the number of people that could live in the ADU. And so, but that was what was best for their individual community.
Juravich: Okay. And do you, did, did you look at other communities around Columbus? You know, so obviously Bexley was working on this, if they pass theirs, or they're just a little faster and passed it sooner. Are there other, you know, Worthington, Dublin, Gehanna, do they allow them?
Beatty: I think as it was alluded to by the other, I think Whitehall and Westerville have it in their zoning code. Other communities, not yet. Yeah. Not yet. Several other cities in Ohio, but we took a nationwide look across the country. And there's not only just city ADU laws, some states, such as California, Arizona, Statewide, ADU laws.
Juravich: Jenny, what's easier for you? Do you want to get it passed statewide or do you? You're going to go city by city. You're gonna go city by city, though.
Carlson: We're going to go city by city because it is a localized issue, because every community, you want that flexibility, but on our state plan is to have a directive saying, please local cities examine the value of ADUs because there's a lot of opportunity there.
Juravich: And as we talked about earlier in California, for example, it's not just helpful for older residents, but it's also a way to help solve the housing crisis. I mean, a young person can move into an ADU as well. 100%.
Carlson: 100%, or an adult child who needs to move back home, or individuals with disabilities that need to have their independence. And so it's just a flexible model to allow individuals to change, and housing needs to change as well.
Juravich: We've been talking about building more accessory dwelling units, also known as ADUs. We've speaking with Jenny Carlson, Executive Director of Ohio AARP. Thank you for your time today.
Carlson: Thank you.
Juravich: And we've also been talking with former Columbus City Councilman Otto Beatty. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. And you have been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich. If you missed any part of today's show, listen back at our website, wosu.org slash all sides. Subscribe to our podcast and every episode is available to listen to in our free mobile app. Be sure to follow All Sides on Facebook and Instagram. Our Instagram handle is at AllSidesWOSU. And this is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich.