The health of American Democracy is in decline.
According to the McCourtney Institute for Democracy, only 27% of Gen Z strongly agree that democracy is the best form of government.
Democracy can be found in many forms and political ideologies. Most recently, we’re witnessing the rise of Democratic Socialism. Zohran Mamdani, Bernie Sanders, and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are just some of the politicians who identify as socialists.
Combined with the public’s growing anti-capitalist sentiments, these new political ideologies are stirring quite the controversy. President Trump and JD Vance have spent the past year comparing them to communism.
But are these new approaches to government really a threat to our democracy, or arethey tryingto revive the health of our democracy?
We’ll learn more about how Americans are rethinking democracy.
Guests:
- Michael Kazin, professor of history at Georgetown University
- Brianna Mack, associate professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University
- Tanmay Shah, Cleveland City Council Member, Ward 12
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Americans are rethinking democracy. According to Penn State's McCourtney Institute for Democracy, only 27% of Gen Z strongly agree that democracy is the best form of government. Democracy can take many forms in political ideologies. Most recently, we're witnessing the rise of the democratic socialism. Nationally, politicians like Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Zoram Mamdami. Are a part of a party called the Democratic Socialists of America, and it's gaining traction in many cities. Combined with the public's growing anti-capitalist sentiments, these new political ideologies are stirring quite the controversy. President Trump and Vice President Vance have spent the past year comparing them to communism. But are these approaches to government really a threat to our democracy? Or are they trying to the health of our democracy. We're going to learn more about the history of democracy and the rise of political ideologies this hour. And joining us now, we have Michael Kazin, professor of history at Georgetown University. Welcome to the show, Professor Kazin.
Michael Kazin: Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Juravich: And joining us in a few moments, we will have Brianna Mack, Associate Professor of Politics and Government at Ohio Wesleyan University. But we'll start with you right now, Professor Kazin. Let's start with some basics. Do you feel like certain political ideologies don't necessarily mean wanting a different form of government? So maybe you can start with explaining a political ideology.
Kazin: Well political ideology is a way of understanding politics. It's a way of criticizing what exists if you don't like it and proposing a different way of organizing government and elections and public policies.
Juravich: So America isn't new to having various approaches to government, though. What are some examples in our history of past parties or past ideologies that have gained popularity from your view, Professor Kazin?
Kazin: Well, obviously, we have a two-party system we have for roughly 20 years. Democrats, Republicans used to be Democrats and Whigs, then became Democrats and Republicans in the 1850s, and it's been that ever since. But we've always had people who were very critical of the two-part system. We've had third parties on the right, we've had three parties on the left, socialist parties, communist parties, the People's Party, the original populists Also a third party on the left, though they were not. Were not socialist, but they wanted a radical change in the economy nevertheless. So, you know, this has been a, America's been a hothouse to ideologies, even though we have been steadfastly a capitalist society with a democratic, at least Republican form of government, especially since, you know the end of enslavement, when at least according to the constitution, all men and eventually all women were supposed to have the right to vote.
Juravich: Joining us now we have Brianna Mack, associate professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University. Welcome back to the show, Professor Mack.
Brianna Mack: Thanks for having me.
Juravich: Um, so I opened the show by talking about a Penn State study out of the McCourtney Institute for Democracy, which found that only 27% of Gen Z strongly agree that democracy is the best form of government. Is this alarming to you?
Mack: Not particularly, and so without me having the direct study in front of me, my first response is I want to see the questions and is it just democracy straight up, a government of the people, by the people for the people or are we talking about our U.S. Current form of government that Gen Zers are not filling anymore?
Juravich: Yeah. Professor Kazin, what do you think? Is it alarming that maybe Gen Z is moving away from thinking democracy is the best form of government?
Kazin: I think I agree with what Professor Mack said, that is, I think the fact that young people are unhappy with our democracy doesn't necessarily mean they're opposed to democracy. I think it means that they are opposed to what those who run our democracy are doing. The most popular politicians in America are people like Bernie Sanders, who certainly in favor of democracy and who tried to get elected president twice. As a socialist, as a democratic socialist. So I think, we've seen this before in American history, doing Great Depressions, doing the popular wars, like the war in Vietnam, that I protested against, I'm an old guy, that there's a lot of disillusionment with the current operation of a democratic government. That doesn't necessarily mean that young people today, or back then, when I was young, are opposed to democracy, want some sort of tyranny of authoritarian government.
Juravich: Yeah, Professor Mack, why do you think we're seeing a tension with the younger generation? And basically, it's probably a tension maybe less with democracy and more of the way things are being run right now or something like that.
Mack: I think it's exactly that. And so right now I'm thinking about students that I'll have this fall that will have questions about will Trump actually run this third term or issues related to like the extended absence of Mitch McConnell and the replacement of Lindsey Graham with his sister, right? And that there are these instances both at the federal level and even occasionally at the state and local level where as we were taught K through 12 and even in college that if something bad happens or if the elected official does something bad. There are supposed to be these checks and balances in place that would eventually correct the issue, whether it's through the removal of that elected official or the creation of a new policy that would prevent such an occurrence from happening again. And what we're seeing with young people that are realizing it in real time, experiencing it, and even I as not as young, are realizing that the things that I was taught and the things I taught my students aren't necessarily playing out in the ways that we were taught that it should. And so for some people. It will be a realization that maybe the system isn't working like they said it should be. Maybe it's time for us to change the game because I'm not sure if we're unable to change the players.
Juravich: Michael, do you think that America will ever not be a democracy?
Kazin: Well, I hope not. I'm a historian. You know, it's hard enough to explain the past, much less predict the future. I certainly hope not, I mean, I think, you know, we've had an imperfect form of democracy for a couple centuries in America, and sometimes it's become more democratic. In 1965, the Voting Rights Act, for example, for the first the South could vote in large numbers. They were not able to because of Jim Crow laws before then. So there's continually a struggle to make democracy something more than a phrase and make it really something with the people in power. That's what democracy means, right? Rule of the people. So again, I hope not. I think Americans are used to democracy. President Trump sometimes you know, talks about. Maybe we shouldn't have an election, you know, he said at one point a couple of months ago. I think that's not popular.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about how Americans might be rethinking democracy with Michael Kazin, professor of history at Georgetown University, and Breonna Meck, associate professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University. We're in a time when people are beginning to branch out from the two party system. We saw a libertarian party gain some steam with Jill Stein's presidential campaign. We're seeing now even more so the Democratic Socialist Party taking hold. Zoram Mamdami and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in New York. Based on past times in history, Michael, do you think it's, we'll see a break in the two-party system, or is this temporary like it has been in the past?
Kazin: Well, in the history of third parties, they usually, they arise and have a big impact for a while, sometimes one election, sometimes more than one election and then they decline. That was true of the People's Party in the 1890s, it was true the American Party, the so-called Know Nothings in the 1850s, and it was also true of Ross Perot's Reform Party in 1990s as well. What makes TSA Democrats of America, somewhat different, is that they're not really a party. Sometimes they're called a party, sometimes they call themselves a party but they're really an organization. They don't run candidates for office under their own ticket. They run candidates primarily as Democrats, of course. Ocasio-Cortez is of course a Democrat, Mamdani is a Democrat and so forth, Mayor of Seattle is a democrat. So that makes them different. In that sense, I think they've done something that... Earlier, radicals in American history really didn't do, is they decided to embed themselves within one of the two parties. That's the only way, realistically, that you can win election in America today, except maybe here and there, a few different localities. So that's a very shrewd decision. And then I think that has enabled them to grow, become more relevant. One of the reasons why, you know, a lot of people are talking about Democrat socialism today is because Democrat socialists have been able to get elected to pretty high offices, like the mayor of New York.
Juravich: Yeah. So let's dive into democratic socialism a little bit, Brianna. It's gaining a lot of popularity recently. Michael just mentioned a few of the cities. Five cities right now have democratic socialist mayors, New York, Seattle, also Burlington, Vermont, Richmond, California, and then Montgomery County and Maryland as well. And later in this hour, we're going to be speaking with a city council member in Cleveland, who is a member of that organization. I'm learning not to call it a political party, but that organization So first things first, Brianna, can you define democratic socialism?
Mack: Oh my goodness, so usually I call it progressivism when my students ask me about this, and I'm like, oh, well, you know, they're talking about rearranging the economic system so that it's more accessible to individuals, that there are actual checks and balances so that our capitalist society is not completely laissez-faire. And in that aspect of, with both Mamdani and in particular AOC, but Mamdane in particular, the stances and decisions that he has made. As New York mayor, in these last couple of months, have our, I would call it, just traditional brick and mortar products that you would get from a democratic socialist. In particular, the push towards rent control and things of that sort.
Juravich: So there is a strong anti-capitalist call that socialists are making. Here is what Senator Bernie Sanders had to say about that.
Speaker 4: In the richest country in the world, we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major nation, the highest of senior poverty of almost every nation. We have a healthcare system which is falling apart. Kids can't afford to go to college, housing crisis, and people are saying, you know what? Here's the radical idea. This is what democratic socialism basically means. Let's have a government that works for all the people, not just the billionaire class. Let's end a corrupt campaign finance system. That allows billionaires in both political parties to determine who wins elections. Let's create the kind of democracy that Lincoln talked about way back when, when he said a government of the people, by the people for the people.
Juravich: So, Michael, socialism has a long history in the US. We've seen it before. Can you tell me a little bit about the history of American socialism? I mean, Bernie Sanders is mentioning Lincoln there. So tell me about socialism.
Kazin: Abraham Lincoln was not a socialist.
Juravich: Duly noted, yeah.
Kazin: Yeah, well, I'll be brief here. The word socialism was actually invented primarily by a capitalist, a Welsh capitalist named Robert Owen, who founded Utopian Socialist College on the land in Indiana and other places in the Midwest. And, um, uh, And socialism, really, the term is, you know, the social part of it is key. That is, it's opposed to individualism, opposed to cutthroat competition. It's an idea of a society where things are held in common, where there's no rich class and no poor class. Everybody works for a living. Everyone cooperates in building a better society. Um, and... Socialism has never been as strong as a movement in this country, as it has been in many other countries. Socialist parties have been major parties, often governing parties, in Scandinavia, in France, in Germany. Obviously, socialist parties, and we name themselves communist parties, became the governing parties in Russia, in China, in Cuba, other places in the world. Well, in this country, socialism has always been a movement which... Pressed for the kind of things that Brianna talked about, immediate demands, rent control, stronger labor unions, national health insurance, Medicare for all, as Bernie Sanders calls it. At the same time, socialists all hold out the vision of a completely different society, a society without capitalists altogether, a society where, as I said before, everybody shares pretty much equally in the goods of society. So, it's this two-part system now. The Socialist Party in America was strong in the early 20th century, and they elected 1200 local officials, including in about 25 different towns in Ohio, some mayors, city council people, some other offices, but usually just for a short period of time. It was more of a protest vote than it was a vote to give socialists lots of power. The one city. Socialists in American history before New York were elected mayors of Milwaukee, where socialists ran the mayor's office there for almost 30 years, the first half of the 20th century. But generally, socialism has been more a movement, has ebbed and flowed in its popularity, and it's obviously having a big ebb right now, a big flow right now. Big flow, yeah. Yeah, as much as it really has since the early 20th century.
Juravich: And Brianna, some would say that America already has socialism in certain ways. I mean, we have social security and Medicaid. I mean even our roads. I mean is that accurate? Are we kind of socialist?
Mack: I don't I'm thinking about all the conservative listeners that are like clutching their pearls and no, it's not socialism We just care about our elderly and we care about those that are poor. However, if you're expanding those ideals out to more people that's where we ultimately get the pushback because then you'll hear the talking points of why should I have to pay for people who aren't carrying their equal load or aren't doing their fair share? If everyone did their fair fair, then there would be more products and benefits to spread around, which is ultimately what socialism is trying to do, spread out the good along with the bad. But going back to your original question, yes and.
Juravich: She's using air quotes around her. Yes. Yeah. Okay. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich. Today we're talking with Michael Kazin, professor of history at Georgetown University and Brianna Mack, associate professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University. They're staying with us and coming up we'll be talking about what opponents say to democratic socialism. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. According to Penn State's McCourtney Institute for Democracy, only 27% of Gen Z strongly agree that democracy is the best form of government. So what are alternatives to our current system? We're talking about the history of democracy and the rise of differing political ideologies this hour. Still with us is Michael Kazin, Professor of History at Georgetown University. Thanks again for being here, Professor Kazin. Happy to do it. And also Brianna Mack. Associate professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University. Thanks for joining us today, Professor Mack. Happy to be here. So before the break, we were talking about democratic socialism and it's become quite controversial recently. Here is what President Trump has to say about it.
President Donald Trump: Because it's not socialism, it's really communism. They use the word social democrat because it sounds so nice, but it's real communism you're talking about. I think it's the biggest threat to our nation. There is, maybe since our founding. That includes World War I, World War II, September 11th. It includes the Pearl Harbor attack. I think this is the biggest threat to a nation. People will smile when I say that, but... The smart people are going to say, you know, he's probably right. It's basically introducing communism into the United States of America. There's never been anything so dangerous.
Juravich: So he's not the only one, Vice President Vance and other members of the Republican Party are regarding socialism as communism. So Professor Mack, can you give us a definition of communism and how it's different than socialism? Yes, off the top of your head, go. Oh my goodness, because I'm so-
Mack: Oh my goodness, because I'm sitting here like, no, Soviet Russia, that was communism, no. But you know, there is, I would argue, a totalitarian aspect that exists to communism that doesn't exist with socialism in any of its forms. And so while there is that stricter, stricther requirements as it pertains to like social life and things that you can and cannot do or even religiosity aspects to communism. I would argue that the tie, there's a point or a reason why Trump is tying socialism to communism as opposed to saying, oh, socialism is this newer thing or this true danger without even defining a bit more exactly what aspects of communism are the danger in particular by saying that this is the newest threat. I feel like we're doing vintage again. And so like we're going back to the 40s and 50s and trying to revive. These negative feelings of the Cold War, like communism is coming, it's the real boogeyman that's behind every.
Juravich: Yeah, Michael, you spend a lot of time studying history. The US has spent a lot of its history fighting against communism. There was a time when this was seen as a real threat to America. So could we really say it's the same right now? Talk to me about the history of fighting communism versus right now.
Kazin: Yeah, no, no it's, our president is always very cautious in the words he uses. Well, I mean, what's interesting actually is that President Trump's mentor, as some people probably know, was Roy Cohn, who became prominent in American politics as a key aide to Joe McCarthy, the Wisconsin senator who gave his name to Ira. The Red Scare of the early 1950s. So, in many ways, President Trump is just, as Brianna said, sort of repeating those tropes from that time. No, I mean, the Cold War ended in 1991, where Russia is still run by an authoritarian ruler, of course, Vladimir Putin, but it's not communist. Communism means the state controls pretty much every part of the economy, which Obviously it's not. To Russia and it's not something that Democrat socialists even today want. And we've had red scares because Americans, you know, for good reasons, I think, have been, we're opposed to communism, we are opposed to a system like the Soviet Union which had a gulag, which put dissenters in jail and banned a opposition press, but that's hardly what Democrat socialist want. Democrat Socialists are in favor of democracy. That is, they want a more democratic system. They believe in democracy at the workplace, as well as at the ballot box, for example. And you can argue that's a bad idea, but it's completely inaccurate to say that they're the same as Mao Zedong, or Fidel Castro, or Joseph Stalin. But that can be, at least for older people who remember the Cold War, which is not people in Gen Z, of course, even most people somewhat older. That might be still a powerful mode of attack. But it's ironic, I think, that the same president, President Trump, who's talking about socialism, really communism, invited Mom Donnie to the White House after he was elected and had a very pleasant conversation with him. So the president should make up his mind what he thinks about socialism.
Juravich: All right, so Brianna, communism is anti-capitalist, anti-free market, anti-private property. So there are some areas where democratic socialism does overlap, right? Ish? In theory. Okay.
Mack: So, I agree with my colleague here about the differences in particular, there's still this promotion of democracy that we see in democratic socialism that is not there with communism. And it's also important to note, you know, the mentioning of Mao Zedong, and we're thinking about China, not even China has a strict communist system anymore, right? Their economy has a lot more capitalistic aspects to it. And one of the arguments, arguing... Points is that like now their economy is just as competitive and may not or may even be better than our economy but going back to your original question about the overlap or similarities there are similarities there in that you know the wealth or the goods and products in theory would be spread or should be spread across all people but we also know that in communist societies or governments in particular that's not necessarily the case that a lot of the products and goods and benefits are with the ruling people and the friends and affiliates and associates of the ruling. And so ultimately in communist governments or in communist societies, the goal is ultimately trying to crack above and to get in good with that ruling class. So that way you could actually have a chance at a better life. And if you aren't in the club, then your life is kind of abysmal or dismal.
Juravich: All right, so, I mean, to clarify, we said this earlier, Democratic Socialism is within the Democratic Party. So it's still an organization. It's not its own party. But some Democratic Socialists do have a vision to become a political party. And here is how New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani describes it.
Zohran Mamdani: We all belong to the big tent that is the Democratic Party. I think the question that is now in front of us is where do we want to go and what do we this party to be? And I think for quite some time, we've defined ourselves purely in response to what the Republican Party is. And they have this seemingly limitless ambition for what it is that they want to accomplish, whereas we seem to be constructing an ever-lowering ceiling of possibility. And we know that in 2028, Yes, we have an opportunity to move beyond the current federal administration, and that begs the question, to what? And I think that it is time to be able to not only have a vision, but to deliver on that vision.
Juravich: So, Professor Mack, we just heard him speaking about this and you mentioned earlier, he's made a lot of progress in New York in his few months in office. Funding for universal childcare, worker protections, he's working on housing affordability. These are all things that Americans care deeply about, Republican and Democrat, both housing affordablity, childcare, worker protections. But some people still take issue with him being a socialist and his socialist ideologies. Why is that?
Mack: Well, I think it's because there has been great political branding at work for decades here, right? And so when you hear the term socialist, there are some people that automatically they get to ick the ick, right. And they're like, oh my goodness, this is a person that is coming from left field. They're not traditionally housed in either Democrat or Republican lines. And so this socialist is coming out of nowhere and they want to change up everything that makes America great again. And it is that type of messaging that is prevalent within mainstream news that would cause people who aren't really engaged in politics when they hear these headlines to automatically get that ick, and it's been working.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about how Americans view democracy with Michael Kazin, history professor at Georgetown University, and Breonna Meck, associate professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University. Earlier we talked about Bernie Sanders, now New York City's mayor. They identify as a part of this group, the Democratic Socialists of America, also known as the DSA. The group has more than 120,000 due-paying members, but So there's probably more people who identify as the DSA, but they're not paying money like dues, because 120,000 I didn't feel like was a very big number. So, Michael, how do you think the D.S.A. Is impacting the growth of socialism in this country? I mean, do you that they will become a political party?
Kazin: As I said before, they've impacted because a lot of people like the idea of something different from the system we have now, which a lot a lot people feel has failed them as individuals, as Brianna was saying, and that's one of the reasons why young people, especially coming out of the Great Recession, 2008, 2009, and the growing wage gap. So that is one of the reasons why socialism I think has gained. Ideology and as a movement in America but if actually if socialists began as they used to to run on their own party as their own Party to oppose both Democrats and Republicans I think that would be a real mistake because first of all they would draw votes from Democrats more than Republicans so Democrats would blame them for electing Republicans in a You know, a state like Ohio today with as close races as it seems for U.S. Senate and for the governorship. If socialists ran their own ticket, they wouldn't necessarily ensure the Republican candidates would win those races, but they'd certainly help the odds for the Republican candidate in those races. And the fact in the clip he played, Bob Donnie talking about what the Democrats should do, he made very clear, I think, that the only really serious, realistic path to increase the popularity of socialism is to show that you can get public attention. And to get public attention, you know, election time is when you do it. And if you can actually get elected, that obviously puts a lot more emphasis on your ideas than if you were just a third party, like the Green Party, the Libertarian Party, which people hardly ever hear about.
Juravich: Brianna, I mean, you're a professor, have you noticed your students becoming more interested in other forms of government?
Mack: Oh, actually this is a good point. So I am the advisor for the college Democrats on my campus and there is the young democratic socialist chapter on my canvas. And to be honest, the young Democratic socialist chapter is much more active than the college Democrat. And the argument that I've heard from many students when I'm like, why don't you come over here and do the traditional party. The argument that hear is that the Democrats aren't doing anything and it's the same people that have been in charge since before you were born Dr. Mack, and I'm like... Thank you for that reminder.
Juravich: Okay, yeah.
Mack: That there are new ideas and that there are even pushes from the national YDSA to do these local events and to do a lot of outreach that we don't necessarily see with the Democratic Party and the college Democrats.
Juravich: What about a Georgetown University? Are you seeing a YDSA, a Young Democratic Socialist of America?
Kazin: Yeah, there is a chapter. The absolute young Democrats are very active on the Georgetown campus. But then people come to Washington, D.C. To go to college because they want to get involved in politics. And a lot of people do internships on the Hill, on Capitol Hill. And so, you know, this is I think I think it's different. But but in fact, one thing to emphasize about Socialist and the Democrat Party, I think, it's important is that Socialist like Bernie Sanders and AOC have pushed the party to the left, at least in a lot his programs. I mean, the fact that... So many Democratic politicians now support Medicare for all, for example. That was not true before Bernie Sanders ran for president in 2016. The fact that also we haven't gotten to foreign policy, but the fact that a lot of Democrats now are much more dubious about giving aid to Israel, especially military aid to Israel, that's something that socialists were talking about, you know, cutting off AD Israel for a long time before the the war in Gaza. And so, in many ways, socialists have, I think, had an impact already on the Democratic Party. Maybe you don't see that, you know, up the road in Harwesley, but I think you can see it on the national scale.
Juravich: Well, what about I mean, you just mentioned foreign policy, there's the PSL, the Party for Socialism and Liberation, which I'm guessing also is an organization, not a party. Is it different than the DSA in your view, Michael?
Kazin: Yeah, I think it is a party. I think they do run candidates. I think they were active in Seattle, if not mistaken. I think they had one councilwoman in Seattle. But the fact that DSA has 120,000 members and PSL, I don't know how many members they have, but clearly, you know, we're not having, we are not having programs on NPR about PSL.
And there's a reason for that, I think, is because PSL is better described in the language of politics as a sect. That is, it's a small group of very radical socialists who do believe, as socialists often have in American history, that you can't work with the Democrats, you can't work the Republicans, you have to show what a real socialist group is like, You can't dilute its appeal by... Telling people to vote for Democrats or Republicans. But for that reason, I think they pretty much marginalize themselves.
Juravich: Are you seeing PSL at Ohio Wesleyan University, Brianna? No, today's the first time I've heard of it, so now I'm good.
Kazin: Do some research. What's my point? Yeah, there you go.
Juravich: Yeah, there you go. All right, we've made the point. OK, so, you know, we're running out of time here. But just to end on we've been talking about democratic socialists and we're going to have a council member from Cleveland who was just elected in November, Professor Mac, you're from Ohio. Are you surprised to see a growing presence of socialism in Ohio?
Mack: I don't think so. I think as I'm thinking about, you know, the upcoming Senate race and our governor's race, that there has been a lot of discourse online, because I am chronically online, especially in the Ohio conversation spaces that are talking about a dissatisfaction with both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, but with more emphasis on the Republican Party since the party has controlled majority aspects of our government for decades. And with that in mind that there are people who are now open to considering other parties or other ideologies, and so the fact that someone managed to get elected in Cleveland is an indicator of perhaps changing tides. Also with the, I think that legislative bill passed, the one that banned ranked voting, that there are also people within both parties that are realizing the tide is going to change soon, and to mitigate any damages that they themselves or the party might receive in the future, they're already. Placing checks in place that would limit that new growth or to limit the rise of a new ideology or a new party.
Juravich: Well, and just to end on Michael, you know, when I when we invited you on this show, you were probably like, oh, OK, I'm I'm in Washington. I'm going to talk with people from Ohio. I mean, what did you think whenever you thought democracy, the socialism in Ohio?
Kazin: Well, as I said before, 110 years ago, socialism was pretty powerful in Ohio. The mayor of Lorraine was a socialist for a while. Esther Buehler had a socialist mayor for a little while.
Juravich: I'm gonna have to look all that up, yeah. I believe you, I believe, yes.
Kazin: Yeah, I can send you a link to all the socialists who used to get elected in Ohio. You know, Ohio is part of this country and there's, you know, young people who are, as Bruno was saying, dissatisfied with the situation, some older people as well. So I think it's, not surprising, even though Ohio has become obviously much more of a state than it was, say, when Barack Obama carried it twice.
Juravich: We've been talking about whether or not the next generation is rethinking democracy. And we've been with Michael Kazin, Professor of History at Georgetown University. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. And we have also been talking with Brianna Mack, Associate Professor of Politics and Government at Ohio Wesleyan University. Thank you for your. Thanks for having me. Coming up, we're going to be talking to a Cleveland City Council member who is a Democratic Socialist and was recently elected. That is When All Sides Continues on 89.7 NPR News. You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. We're witnessing a rise in democratic socialism. Zoran Mondami, Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are just some of the politicians who identify with this group. But President Trump's response to them is to say that democratic socialists are spreading communism. But there is a new approach to government and will it really threaten our democracy? Or is it trying to revive the health of our democracy. Joining us now is Cleveland City Council member for the 12th Ward, Tanmay Shah, a democratic socialist. Welcome to all sides, Tanmay.
Tanmay Shah: Good morning, thank you so much for having me.
Juravich: So tell me about your campaign, your platform, like what set you apart as a candidate and help you win this seat in Ward 12.
Shah: Yeah, we you know, this is my first time holding political office and a lot of folks are surprised when I told them I didn't even knock the door before my campaign. But we really I think our field game was a difference and we knocked over 10,000 doors. We ran on a platform of affordable housing, affordable groceries and reliable city services because we really saw these things as fundamental things that every single person in our city deserves to have before we talk about you know handouts for wealthy billionaires for stadiums and ballparks.
Juravich: So, what made you decide to identify with democratic socialism instead of just the traditional democratic party?
Shah: Yeah, I got involved with our local chapter here about four or five years ago when we were actually running a housing organizing project. It was called the Cleveland Housing Organizing Project, CHOP for short. And we door-knocked an eviction list. So the housing court would give us a list of all of the evictions that were filed in the last two weeks. And we would go door-knot, talk to residents and tenants, and give them the resources that was, at the time, a newly formed right to counsel through legal aid that provided legal aid assistance for tenants. And we were also trying to organize tenant unions. So that was the project that I got involved with and I wanted to do something tangible, didn't wanna just talk, and this was shortly before I started working at Legal Aid as a housing attorney. So I wanted it to kind of see the whole progression of where my clients were coming from. So that's kind of how I got involve, but for me really at its core was, how are we doing things differently and how are putting democracy at the center of our politics, of a mass politics that allows anybody else to engage and it's not just for the few.
Juravich: So when you would knock on these 10,000 doors and you tell people you're a democratic socialist, were people accepting of it? Or did they hone in on that word socialism and say, oh no.
Shah: That's a great question and let me make it clear, I didn't knock on those 10,000 doors by myself. I was a fraction of those. We had over 150 volunteers that we counted throughout the campaign.
Juravich: That they all were knocking on the door saying the same words of a democratic socialist. So what was the reaction like to adding that word socialism?
Shah: Yeah, it's generally, you know, we found it, in our experience, generally pretty positive for the folks who had that name recognition, and then for the ones that didn't, of course some questions and then definitely some negatives as well, got cussed out a few times and asked to leave the front door and I said, that's okay, we won't come back. But generally it was pretty positive. I mean, at the time we had been coming off of a campaign in the city for getting ceasefire resolution in City Hall for Palestine. So this was something that a lot of folks had been talking about. Our chapter was involved as part of a broader coalition as well. So for us, being able to lead with something that was salient that people were already talking about, they had name recognition of our involvement, that meant a lot for folks. And we saw pretty positive reactions when we talked about that. In my specific race, we also pushed for a no endorsement from the local democratic party. So there was no endorsed Democrat and so we really got the opportunity to talk about what politics actually looks like.
Juravich: So New York City's mayor, Mamdami, is one of the biggest names we hear when it comes to democratic socialism. He was elected around the same time as you. Did his campaign impact yours at all? Would you call him an inspiration or anything like that?
Shah: Absolutely. It definitely impacted people. It's easy to draw parallels. I'm also an immigrant, moved here from India when I was nine. And I think that overall name recognition certainly helped, but we saw each, especially at the local level when we're running from municipal offices, the context is very different. And for us, we still had to talk locally about what that means, what is that going to look like in practice? How are we going to do things differently in because nobody's under the impression that Cleveland is the same as New York. So we definitely, you know, our big fans appreciated that.
Juravich: So earlier in the hour we heard a clip from President Trump who basically, to summarize the audio, he basically said socialism is a coverup for communism and it's the biggest threat to our country. How do you respond to that rhetoric? Because I'm sure you heard that in a couple of those door knocks too.
Shah: We certainly did, and I think the discourse online is certainly more, I think, negative in that sense. I mean, at this point, in terms of responding to the president, I don't know if anyone believes a word that comes out of this guy's mouth, but for the argument's sake, I think we've seen this time and time again over the decades, over this last century of our country, of any time there is a threat in any ways to the capital-driven market system, then the red specter gets blamed. I was just talking to some council colleagues who were pointing out, you know, all the fears that they have about socialism. And my counter was, look, Cleveland's been run by capitalists for the last 60 years, for the past 100 years for its entirety. And we can't really blame anybody else for the failures of our city and our state right now. And I think more and more people, that's where they're at, where they see the current system not working and they're looking for alternatives. And we see this as a viable alternative so that we can provide that option.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about how Americans are thinking about new political ideologies this hour. And we are talking right now with democratic socialist and Cleveland city council member for Ward 12, Tonmai Shaw. So we spent the first part of today's show talking about some research that came out of Penn State University. And it says that only 27% of Gen Z strongly agree that democracy is the best form of government. What do you think when you consider the future of democracy?
Shah: It's going to look like whatever we fight for. And I think the time right now is exactly for that. I think people keep pushing the Democratic party internally for more fight, right? We've seen that kind of rhetoric throughout congressional races, local races. It certainly was a point in ours where if we say we're different from Republicans, if we want different things for the working class, what are our actions actually look like beyond rhetoric? And we, as democratic socialists, we put democracy at the center of. What we're doing. And we believe it actually in our workplace, I helped organize a union at legal aid where I worked was really proud of that work with my organizing committee, we put democracy at the center, we said, Okay, look, this is our work, we should have a say in how it's directed, and what happens. And the same thing goes to the ballot box and to local city hall where more and more we're seeing that people are realizing it is not popular opinion or the, you know, democratic interests that are actually directing the policy. We keep seeing these unpopular positions and decisions by our elected officials So we really as democratic socialists believe that democracy has to be the center of it and that's where the fight is
Juravich: And how involved are you in your local chapter? The Democratic Socialists of America have a chapter in Cleveland. Is it very active, or is it just you?
Shah: Yeah, we have, I believe last I checked over 700 paid dues, paying members in the greater Cleveland area. It's I think all of Cuyahoga County and I'm a member. I'm proud to be a member I haven't had as much time to engage in my chapter lately. We've been learning a lot here. We have, you know, staff members that are local members as well. And We also have two priority projects right now that are going on. One gearing up to fight for freedom gender policy in Cleveland and another for immigration solidarity work where we're talking about know your rights and putting on presentations for community members so that we can better understand our rights when ice comes knocking.
Juravich: We can get into those in a minute, but I wanted to ask, so as a member of the democratic socialist of America chapter, it's more of an organization. It's not a political party. So when you ran, I mean, you ran as a Democrat on the ballot. You had a D next to your name, right? So do you, do you wish it was its own party or are you a Democrat?
Shah: Actually, it's, I did not run as a, so in Cleveland we have non-partisan.
Juravich: Ballots. Oh, okay. So there was no...
Shah: So there was no D next to anyone's name. Everybody is listed without a party affiliation. So I didn't run as specifically that, but we were open with folks, I identified as both. We weren't shying away from either of the labels. And for us, that was really a great opportunity to talk about the differences.
Juravich: Okay, so do you see DSA as a division of Democrats and you're trying to like push the democratic party in a certain direction?
Shah: I think it's a big tent. I think you'd probably be able to find a variety of opinions. I certainly think that we have a role to not only push the Democratic Party, but to show what things can look like if we do differently. And it only will make a change if we're able to build mass politics. So we have to be able convince people about what that difference looks like.
Juravich: Yeah, I mean, if you became your own political party, though, it would basically, like, earlier our guest said it would just dilute the Democratic Party and take votes away and help the Republican Party. Do you agree with that?
Shah: I think we've always seen that argument used against third parties. And I kind of shy away, it's always has to be what's the positive vision you're putting forth instead of blaming others for what isn't there. But that's certainly a possibility and I think each context is different, right? What are the issues that candidates are talking about? How are they reflecting the needs of the community? But that certainly a possible and I thinking that there's voices that believe both things in the DSA, so.
Juravich: So, you know, socialism calls for a lot of reforms at the micro level, housing, child care, quality of life. You've mentioned a few of that as well, especially the housing. And it's mainly in the jurisdiction. But that all of those things, you don't housing child care, it mainly is that's a state government issue. And DSA now has nationally over 120,000 do paying members. But there's probably more people who consider themselves members of the party and maybe don't give money. The movement's gaining popularity. But coming from someone currently in office. What do you, what does it mean for a local government if there's no DSA in the state government, that kind of thing?
Shah: I think it means we have to show people by actions and by the outcomes. This was something that so recently, you might have seen we've had a lot of issues with blackouts in Northern Ohio around Cleveland, Lakewood, where we have two different energy companies here. Of course, First Energy, which provides the majority for people outside and around Cleveland. And then in Cleveland, we also have Cleveland Public Power, which is actually owned by the city. The blackouts have affected residents in both portions. And as a democratic socialist who believes that government should be the solution where the market fails and even beyond, where I've been pushing my colleagues has been, look, we need to be making investments in our local grid so that people can actually see what it looks like when we do not prioritize profit over people. First energy is not something that we as a local community are going to have as much power over. I mean, we've already seen them not face much repercussions for one of the largest bribery scandals probably in the history of the nation. So we know kind of the state house and where that's going to be at. So that's not a fight that realistically we're going to be able to have anytime soon. But at least for CPP, we have to be able to show that as a democratic socialist means that we have to fundamentally change the priorities of our budget and say that these are the things we care about and nobody's coming to save us, whether that's the state or the federal, and we're gonna have to start looking for solutions right here.
Juravich: So you've been in office about half a year. What do you envision for the future of your time as a council member?
Shah: I'm learning a lot. This is, as I said, the first thing I think for, you know, folks who want to do things differently on City Hall in Cleveland, we have a lot of learning to do to understand kind of how the black box to peel it back to make it transparent for folks so that we can build a movement, not just internally, but also externally. But we're really excited, I think, next term to introduce some legislation this first term in the first half year. We've been kind of learning, seeing how the budget cycle goes so that we can get that under our belt and know what's coming around the corner. But we have some really fun organizing opportunities coming up ahead.
Juravich: And so we have about 30 seconds, a little less than a minute left. What's something you've accomplished so far that you're proud of?
Shah: That's a good question. In the first year we passed our budget, I was really proud to vote yes for our local bill called Tanisha's Law, which prioritized set up a different department for mental health for responding for people who are in mental health crisis. This is something that we've been seeing across the country. Other colleagues have been pushing for it. That was not something I led on my own, but I was very proud to go yes for it would definitely highlight that as one of the ways we were able to bring something that the people need.
Juravich: We have been talking about the rise of democratic socialism with Cleveland City Council member for Ward 12, Tonmai Shaw, a member of the DSA party. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Shah: Thank you so much for your time.
Juravich: And you've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. And I want to say thanks to our All Side's staff, producers Marcus Charleston and Erin Esmont-Rabinowitz. Thanks to our student producers, Breanna Fortunet and Iza Huck, and Izza Huck produced today's show. Student producer from Denison University is Ellen Hansen. Also video production by the Ohio Channel and board operation is by Chris Johnston and Trey Hayes. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich. Thanks for joining us.