Senate Bill 273, or the “Keep Them Safe Act,” has been one of the few gun policies that received unanimous support from both the Ohio House and Senate.
Gov. Mike DeWine signed it into law on June 18. The bill allows a person struggling with suicidal thoughts or other mental health emergencies to temporarily store their firearms with federally registered gun dealers or law enforcement officers. The hope is that by separating a struggling person with their weapon, suicide will decrease.
Guests:
- Whitney Austin, executive director and co-founder of Whitney/Strong
- State Sen. Bill DeMora (D-Columbus, Ohio State Senator District 25
- Jim Samuel, legislative affairs director for the Buckeye Firearms Association
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. On September 6th, 2018, a mass shooting occurred in Cincinnati at the Fifth Third Center. The shooter killed three people and injured two. Whitney Austin was a victim of this shooting, being shot 12 times and survived. Since then, she started the Whitney Strong Nonprofit, an organization focused on reducing gun violence. She was a key proponent of a bill that passed recently with bipartisan support in Ohio. It's called the Keep Them Safe Act and is a bill that allows gun owners to store their guns at a federally registered gun dealer or with law enforcement officers during a mental health crisis. And joining us now is the co-founder and executive director of the Whitney Strong Organization, Whitney Austin. Welcome to the show, Whitney. Thank you for having me. So in 2018, you went through something unimaginable. I mean, can you briefly tell me what happened that day to you?
Whitney Austin: Yes, it's almost been eight years, and I still remember very vividly what happened. I thought I was going to work at the bank and instead found myself in the midst of a mass shooting, which I can tell you is something that I never, ever, ever expected to happen to me. And while I was taking gunfire and thinking about all the ways I could live, One of the other thoughts that was really nagging at me in that moment was, I've done nothing to stop this. So why did I think it wouldn't happen to me? And so of course, thinking about how to survive was the most important thing to me. But once I was rescued and I made my way to the hospital and went through all of the scans and woke up and heard that I had been shot 12 times, but that I would survive, I'll never forget thinking, I got a gift that no one gets, and because of this, I'm going to have to be on the side of making sure that other people don't experience this.
Juravich: On your website, you said that you thought about how angry you were at like, and tell me about that anger. You were angry that you didn't do anything to prevent the situation from happening. I mean, tell me about that feeling.
Austin: Y'all You know, I think I'm not angry anymore. I am filled with gratitude that that I got this gift to go back to my children and my husband and to do this work. But as someone who, you know, I lived a very privileged life and there weren't a lot of issues that were coming at me that led me to a place of wanting to get involved, to be on the side of affecting change. But as a mother, I started to really pay attention to the issue of gun violence and course with school shootings but gun violence in all forms that affect children. And so I started to think maybe I should get involved in this issue and I had received some text messages from groups that I signed up to participate with but I always had an excuse. I've got young children, I'm too busy, I have a busy career, I can't show up. And, so in that moment, again primarily thinking about living, one of the nagging thoughts was, but you had a chance. You never showed up to do anything. You didn't even send an email or make a phone call asking for change. And so anger was there and I'm glad I documented it on the website because again, it's been eight years almost and feelings change, but I was angry at myself that I had done nothing. And I think that that is something I can convey to a lot of people is that if you care about something you need to engage. Don't allow the excuses of being busy to keep you from participating. You can play a role.
Juravich: So you started this organization, Whitney Strong, and on your website you also say what your organization is not. And you say it's not another failed attempt to make progress on gun violence. So tell me why you started this non-profit.
Austin: Well, one was this overwhelming sense of responsibility that I was going to do now what I failed to do in the years leading to my own shooting. But the second reason I felt so compelled to start this organization with my husband is because I had done enough research to really see that I didn't feel like this common ground approach was represented. You know, I live in Louisville, Kentucky. I come from a household where You know, my father owned guns, we owned guns. We owned guns and also from a position to, you know, have a lot of friends that crossed the political spectrum. And as we sat there in the hospital, my husband and I that first week, the calls and the texts were incessant and they were from people of all different stripes and they we're all united in what happened to you is unacceptable and we wanna be on the side of stopping it. And so it was all of those things coming together that led us to, okay, well, we can do this in a different way. We can build an organization that makes everybody feel comfortable to participate because at the end of the day, whether you are involved in a mass shooting or someone you love is struggling with suicide and uses a gun to many other forms of gun violence, it really doesn't matter. Where you sit politically, you are still at risk. And so we want to be on the side. Of reducing gun death and injury.
Juravich: And you also say that a part of the reason that bills to reduce gun violence don't pass is because of the extremes, this black and white division on this issue, either guns are good or guns are bad. So why do you feel it's important that people realize gun ownership is not such a black and White issue? It's not one thing or another.
Austin: Well, it's important because if we are to reach the ultimate goal Which is to materially reduce the number of people who are injured and killed We're going to have to find a place of common ground and you aren't going to get there if you hate guns Or if you love guns and really that's and I'm sorry I didn't say that the right way if you eight guns or if you think Everyone should own guns and use them at all times. And so when you think about the different policies that exist in a state like Ohio or in a State like Kentucky where we do the work, you are going to have to really tease through what are the policies that can get support and can move. And really any change on this issue that is evidence-based is a win. And so that's why it's important to think about what can actually move. And that's where Whitney Strong begins when it comes to policy change.
Juravich: So the bill that recently passed here in Ohio is called the Keep Them Safe Act, and it was passed unanimously, bipartisan, passed unanimously. Tell me about this bill. What does it entail?
Austin: It is a wonderful piece of policy. It has passed in several states before it made its way to Ohio. And what it does is it really provides a solution that gun owners want to use, which is an important piece of the puzzle. And so what it allows for if a gun owner for any reason needs to temporarily store their firearm out of the home, that they can go to a place that is many. In many cases, a beloved place to them, the gun shop, where they go to purchase firearms, to do target practice, and they can store it there temporarily, no questions asked. The onus is on them, no one's taking it away from them. That is their decision to make. And when they're through a crisis, or as was shared earlier, potentially you've got grandkids in the home for a month. Maybe you've a teenager in the house who's going through a mental health crisis. When things are better and safe. You can bring it back to the home. And the other thing that's important about this, you know, you may ask the question, well, why weren't we already doing this? Well, because gun shops felt that the liability was too high to take these firearms. If they took them and then returned them and then the bad thing would happen, that they would be held liable. And so the big change in this policy is that gun shops are provided civil immunity. Think of it as them being good Samaritans. And so it really opens up this new pathway before. Right now, we don't need guns in the home, but we have a safe and trusted place where we can store it.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the Keep Them Safe Act with co-founder and executive director of the Whitney Strong organization, Whitney Austin. Your group, you got support on this bill from groups like the National Rifle Association and the Buckeye Firearms Association. How did you get them on board? Because there's a lot, anytime a gun bill comes up, it seems like we can't all agree. So how did you those groups on board too?
Austin: Well, this was one of those solutions that was really moving organically on its own. So it wasn't a case of Whitney Strong having to bring the NRA on board or Buckeye Firearms Association. And by the way, you know, just as many people that supported it that are not, you know, involved in the Second Amendment, like the Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation. There was really a groundswell of a lot of organizations that are united in, look, if we can reduce gun death and injury and do it in a way that brings this group together, we're going to do it. Now, it is not often that you can get the NRA or the Buckeye Firearms Association involved in a policy of this nature, but where that exists, we gotta work together. You know, it's the, I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. From Frederick Douglass and I really believe in working in that way.
Juravich: Well, I don't know if part of the bill, will the gun shop or the law enforcement official that you give the gun to temporarily, do they charge money to store the gun or is it free?
Austin: I have not seen where they are charging. To be quite honest, I'm not sure if that is a possibility. But one thing I do know is the gun shop has a lot of autonomy in this. So they could set it up so that these are freestanding lockers that they have really maintenance over. They don't even touch.
Juravich: They don't even touch it. Yeah. Yeah, right.
Austin: Right or it could be that they set it up that you know the locker is behind the the desk and the pot The firearm is being passed over and then being stored in the locker So I apologize. I'm not sure that I've seen that someone is charging, but but I'll get that information for you.
Juravich: OK, well, yeah, and I can also ask. We have other people coming on later who were involved in the bill. They might know as well. What do you think about how this bill was passed bipartisan? I mean, I'm sure that you I know you testified and talked to lawmakers. So tell me about that piece, too, because you had a lot of co-sponsors here.
Austin: Yes, amazing. That's the way in which Whitney Strong does our work. We will not get behind a bill unless it has bipartisan support. It goes back to where I started in the interview. Some people love guns and some people hate guns. Relationships with guns in rural areas is different than relationship with guns and urban areas. And so we're all going to have give a little. And the way we give a little is when we have bipartisan support. And You know, I understand we're talking about gun death and injury right now, but we have so many issues in America in which we cannot make any progress. And so, yes, Whitney Strong believes in bipartisan-supported legislation, and Whitney Austin believes in bipartisan supported legislation when it comes to a whole hist of issues. So it was a wonderful thing. And I think it should be inspiring to Ohioans that we can do more on this issue.
Juravich: And did you, whenever you were working on this legislation, you said that it's something that has passed in other states. I'm not sure how long ago it passed in other states and that kind of thing, but do you know if there are numbers, do people utilize it? I don't know if any tracking on it, because I do know there is also another piece of the bill where it's anonymous, but anyway, like there's no paper, like, yeah. So are there numbers of people doing this in other States and using this?
Austin: Well, sir, this is a really important part of affecting change. OK, great. You pass legislation. That was a big deal. But the second piece of is, is it working? And so states such as Louisiana and Arkansas, for example, have passed this legislation. There's a wonderful nonprofit called the Armory Project that then comes behind and in some cases gets in front of it to work to encourage gun shops to set this up and to participate. But so far, there has not been any research on its usage or its effectiveness. What the research that exists has shown is this is a solution that gun owners feel comfortable with. So the next phase of the research is, okay, well, what's happening? And so Whitney Strong has a research arm, and we're already in conversation with a researcher in Cincinnati to figure out how we could get something set up. We'd like to study. The usage and we'd like to get to the effectiveness, being able to compare potentially a county with strong adoption versus a county that has low or zero adoption. But it takes time and it takes support. So anyone listening that cares about research, please go to Whitney Strong and learn more about what we do.
Juravich: Your group also has a legislative fund. So I'm assuming you're using that legislative fund to work on more bills related to gun violence and finding common ground. Is there anything else in the works that you would like to talk about?
Austin: Yes, the reason we started the legislative fund is because my passion is really working on policy and we wanted to get to a place where I could get more into that versus our programming. We do a lot of evidence-based programming where we distribute gun locks, teach firearm safety, suicide warning signs, et cetera. And so that legislative fund is doing work in both Ohio and in Kentucky. And so next up is I want to bring this bill into Kentucky. It's not been something that has been discussed yet. In the reverse, in Kentucky, we passed through one chamber, a Glock switch ban, a state Glock, switch ban but not yet through the Senate. We're still doing our due diligence to figure out if Ohio could benefit from a state level Glock switch ban early signs show that it could, but needs to do a little bit. I don't know what-
Juravich: I don't know what a Glock switch is, you're going to have to tell me what that is.
Austin: So a Glock switch is a little square that is often 3D printed that goes onto oftentimes a Glock pistol, but can be used on other handguns. And it allows for a handgun to move from semi-automatic fire to automatic fire. And anybody who knows anything about guns understands that that is not a benefit. You want to be accurate in your shooting. You don't want to just spray. And so they're getting used more and more frequently, whether it's community violence or mass violence, and they are banned at the federal level, but at the state level, the ban is necessary to ensure that individuals who possess, who manufacture, that they can be held accountable because it's really not something that federal agents have time to deal with. So that's one, and then I think it's a lot of listening. Going back to the table with this coalition that was willing to move this solution. What else would you be willing to get behind? And also sometimes what do we need to move with maybe a smaller coalition? So there's more to come.
Juravich: We have been talking with Whitney Austin, co-founder and executive director of the Whitney Strong Organization, a nonprofit that is focused on reducing gun violence. Thank you so much for joining us today, Whitney.
Austin: Thank you for having me.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk to one of the 20 co-sponsors of the Keep Them Safe Act. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. In Ohio, suicide makes up roughly 59% of firearm-related deaths. The leading cause of death in children is firearm- related injuries. An estimated 185 children are lost to gun violence every year in central Ohio. A bill that was passed unanimously by Ohio lawmakers is called the Keep Them Safe Act, and it's hoping to decrease the number of deaths due to firearms. When it comes to a mental health crisis or having a child visit a home, the bill allows gun owners to store their guns at a federally registered gun dealer or with law enforcement officers during a mental-health crisis. And here to talk about the bill, the Keep Them Safe Act, is one of the bill's co-sponsors, Ohio Democratic Senator Bill DeMora. Welcome to the show, Senator.
State Sen. Bill DeMora: Thank you for having me.
Juravich: All right, so you were one of 20 co-sponsors on this bill. I'm sure that there are many different reasons that each senator chose to co-sponsor it or not. What was your reason?
DeMora: My reason is this could actually does something. I mean, the legislature, the current legislature and the past few legislatures haven't want to do anything about gun control, about the epidemic, which is gun violence. This is at least a good first step. Any of the Republicans get behind that actually does something to help with gun violence is something that I'll get behind. It's certainly not as far as I want to go. It's really... Not what we need to be doing, but it's a first step, and if the Republicans can agree on it, then I certainly can agree.
Juravich: Yeah, so you're a Democratic senator. There are probably different reasons Democratic senators signed on than Republicans. What did you hear from your Republican colleagues about this bill?
DeMora: I mean, for them, it's kind of a no-brainer. I mean the NRA was behind it, so that allows them to be behind it because they basically are controlled by the N.R.A. If the NR. A tells them they can't do something, then they won't do it. They won't pass anything. They're kind of under, at their mercy. So the NRI let them do this because it's a good PR for them that they get to say, well, we passed something dealing with gun control because Ohioans demand something to be done, especially after the Dayton shooting where Whitney was, unfortunately shot 12 times. This appears, it shows that their supporters quote-unquote or that people that care about gun control, they can say, well, we just did this. It's again not something that I think is going to do much to actually stop the gun violence in Ohio, but they could say that they passed something for gun control when they get elected this year, which hopefully is a tough election year for Republicans.
Juravich: Yeah, I mean, it's notoriously difficult to get gun legislation to pass, especially unanimously. Why do you think this bill stood out?
DeMora: Because NRA was supporting it. And again, I'm off for, if somebody needs to turn in their gun because they think, well, the easiest one is they have kids coming that they don't only have kids and they get to store their guns somewhere with no questions asked. That's always a positive thing because as you just stated earlier, children, hundreds of children a year are hurt and killed by guns in Ohio. And anything we can do to stop that is a good measure. If some, a family member thinks that someone in the family is having a mental health crisis, they can take the guns somewhere to get them away from the family member having a health crisis. That's also positive. What the negative is, of course, if you're the person having the mental health crisis and you're one in the house, you're not gonna take your guns in to get them stored in the middle of a mental health crisis and somebody who's plotting to do a school shooting or to do a mass shooting like happened in Dayton, they're not going to take their own guns in either. So, and someone who also is looking to rob a bank or something with a gun, they're not gonna take their guns. And so again, this is kind of a feel-good piece of legislation that I fully support because again, any steps we can take to get guns off the street is a positive step. But in the long run, we haven't gone near enough. I mean, this has maybe pushing, using football analogy, since I'm a big Buckeye fan, this is getting two yards on fourth and 15. Mm. Okay. Well...
Juravich: The the bill did pass the Keep Them Safe Act and Whitney was in a tragic shooting in Cincinnati. We all know about the shooting that happened in Dayton whenever Governor DeWine stood with Mayor Nan Whaley and the whole crowd started chanting do something. So Governor De Wine has wanted some gun control legislation to pass. Do you feel like the Republican lawmakers were working with him on this at all?
DeMora: I mean, the governor said he wanted to pass something, but of course he buckled underneath the legislative leadership who weren't going to pass anything. I mean the governor's done a couple of good things in the last month, but when it comes to guns, he speaks a good game and hasn't done anything. He's bowed to the wishes of the legislature, which is under the control of the NRA, and hasn't gone anything. I mean he has not used his political will. I mean again, he's not running for office again. In the budget that we passed last year. He could have done something guns because he had the political capital to do that because the budget's going to pass and he's not going to get votes to override certain parts of it like he didn't do what he should have done on the budget. The fact that he hasn't used his clout to say I'm not going give you any pet projects in your district if you don't pass some gun control, he hasn't done any of that. I mean he talks a good game and then the legislature keeps passing, I mean we We just had another bill we just passed that now the preponderance of of, if someone shoots you, they have to prove that you weren't menacing the person that shot you. The standard ground law made it even worse in Ohio. So the burden goes on the person, not the person who shot somebody, but the person who was advancing on somebody that got shot. I mean, it's ridiculous that guns have more rights in Ohio than women do.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the Keep Them Safe Act and other gun legislation with Ohio Senator Bill Demora. We did reach out to a co-sponsor of the bill, Ohio Republican Senator Michelle Reynolds. She, to be a part of the show, she had a prior commitment and was unable to join us. In a few minutes, we will be joined by the Buckeye Firearms Association to find out why they were one of the supporters of this bill. But I wanted to ask you ... About the bill in a little more detail. Whitney talked about how it gives civil immunity to the gun dealers who store the firearms. That was an important part of this. The gun shop owners didn't want to return the gun and have something bad happen and it be their fault, right? Absolutely.
DeMora: Absolutely, I mean again the bill is what the bill did is good and the provisions of it except the fact that they can be charged
Juravich: Yes, we did want to clarify that Whitney was on earlier She wasn't sure about this, but the gun shop owners can if they want to Charge a fee for storing the gun, you know, maybe like a lockup fee or something like that
DeMora: But I mean, they should not have liability. I mean if you're accepting something voluntarily as a gun shop or a police force or anybody that can accept these, if they give the gun back to somebody who under the law they have to give a gun back, they shouldn't be held responsible for something happened with that gun afterward. I mean so that makes perfect sense. And I mean nobody would take a gun if they didn't have this ability, I mean didn't waver on criminal penalties or civil penalties if they gave the gun back and something happened to it. So no one would actually take the gun. So that had to happen for this bill to actually pass to have anybody actually want to take the gun. So again, I was all for it. There was nothing bad in this bill. I mean, normally there are bills, sometimes you vote on something and you don't like everything, but in the legislature, the bill that makes everybody upset a little bit is the ones that actually get passed. This bill, there's nothing in this build actually, again, other than the storing charge, which maybe some people won't do, but again, in today's world.
Juravich: But maybe law enforcement off, if you go to a law firm. If you go to a law...
DeMora: A law enforcement's really not going to charge you, of course not, but I know it will. So other than that part, which is a very minuscule part of the bill, everything in this bill was good because it does at least set... Up the stage for maybe going further, like the city of Columbus has done by passing reasonable gun issues that the state is suing them over. The court of appeals I think is going to make the decision very soon about ruling on the case because they have the case now. But listen, if the state's not going to do it, and I stated before there's no way the current legislature or the legislature comes in January 2nd is going do anything substantial on gun violence, then let the cities themselves, if they want to protect let them pass laws that their citizens want like the ones Columbus have passed and let the state stay out of it. I mean we say we're a home rule state, but anything the Democrats want to do at the home rule level, Republicans tend to pass a law to not let them do that like fracking, plastic bags, gun rules, but the state literally will their ability, we'll let them do something if they think it's in their best interest.
Juravich: I wanted to talk about some other bills that are in the works. One that you co-sponsored but has not passed yet is called Senate Bill 96. But this bill allows for a tax credit for the costs of handgun training and for purchasing firearm storage and locking devices. Tell me about this bill, why you want a tax credits.
DeMora: Well, because I mean, tax credits seem to be motivators for people that might not really want to do something. I mean we should have, I mean I think the polling shows over 90% of Ohioans and Americans support lock boxes in homes that have children in them. It's common sense. I mean you're not taking away the right to own a gun, you're saying, hey, if you have young children in the house, that gun has to be stored so that a young Can't get it and shoot themselves or somebody else with that gun That's why I support, and if it's gonna take a tax credit to get people to realize that this is something we need to do, then I'm all for it.
Juravich: There was recently a 21 month old baby who fatally shot himself with an unsecured gun in his home here in Ohio. I mean, do you think a tax credit for buying a locking device would have prevented that tragedy?
DeMora: I mean, it certainly might have. I mean again, I'm trying to do anything we can to prevent these unnecessary deaths for children and other people. So if I'm gonna get a tax credit for buying something that, I mean we should make people buy anyhow if they have kids in a house with a gun. If it's gonna be tax credit so they can buy it and not actually expend any of their own money, they get their money back, then that's a good thing. Because if one person buys a lock box because of a tax credits and saves a child's life, then it's well worth it.
Juravich: Last December, an 11-year-old girl was fatally shot by her cousin after they discovered an unsecured gun. And this incident prompted some legislation that's called Amaya's Law, which aims to prevent unauthorized child access to firearms and to hold adults accountable if they have a poorly stored weapon. Do you have any updates on that piece of legislation?
DeMora: Again, no significant piece of gun regulation is gonna pass the current General Assembly. It's just not gonna happen. This bill, I mean, 273, which by the way, was actually a Senator Craig bill, a Democratic Senator, it was 238, that kind of got, we'll say, I don't wanna use the word stolen, but kind of get absconded, and it made it to the bill that was supported that's.
Juravich: Let's say it got swept up. It gets swept up in legislation.
DeMora: Um because it was gonna be something that everybody could agree on. But the current legislature is not gonna pass any substantive gun legislation unless we actually elect different legislators. I mean, I will tell you that this last primary just northwest of Delaware County, my colleague, Andy Brenner, who we disagree a lot of things politically, but we're very friendly and we agree on some things, he got beat in his primary because they said he was soft on guns. Representative Beth Lear, who's about as right as Attila the Hun. Lost her primary to somebody more right than her who called her somebody who wanted to take away guns, soft on the Second Amendment. They lost their primaries because of this. The Republican primaries, I mean, if you're not all forgiving, everybody a gun and teach them, and I mean when you're born you get a gun as your first present, they're going to use it against you in a Republican primary. That's how bad it's gotten.
Juravich: Well, talk to me about someone like Whitney Austin, because she helped get this legislation passed, and she was a big proponent of it. She said that she's a gun owner, born and raised in Kentucky, has lots of friends and family members who all own guns. And so she got behind this because she's looking for the common ground. So tell me about how you feel. Did you move the needle a little bit with the keep them safe act?
DeMora: Yes, I mean, we do a little bit. Yes. And I'm hoping that we can move a little further. Again, when over 90% of the population agrees on something, like lock boxes, like red flag laws, and these are gun owners, non-gun owners, Democrats, Republicans, independents, all agree that certain things are common sense to have, why can't we agree on those things? I mean Republicans should want to be protecting children from unprotected, from guns that are just lying around. And a curious child gets a hold of it and shoots themselves or somebody else. And again, I am not... Again, I'm one of those Democrats, I don't wanna ban the Second Amendment. I mean, I have lots of friends that have guns. I have, lots of relatives that have gun. And I've seen their guns. I mean my cousin must have 40 rifles and 55 handguns at his house in August County and I've see them all, but they're all locked up. And all his kids are over 30 years old now, but he still has them all locked. But if you have children in your house, under, I mean small children, locking your gun is not taking away your Second Amendment right. I mean, the Second Amendment doesn't say that, you know, it says the right to keep and bear arms. It says, by the way, the first clause of that which people forget is in order to maintain a well-regulated militia, comma, the right keep and bare arms should not be in friends. Everybody forgets the first-clause of that Second Amendment. But again, a lockbox doesn't do anything to take away your guns. You can have as many guns as you want. Just put them in a lock box. Lock them up so the kids can't get a hold of them. I don't understand why that's so controversial. And that would go a long way. To protecting children in Ohio. As you said, 139 are the number you said. Children in Ohio died because of guns in their houses that weren't locked up.
Juravich: The idea of gun issues being black and white comes up a lot where it's just either they're good or they're bad. But you, I mean, you basically just said that you don't agree with that. You know, you could, you say, you know, you have a cousin who has, you, I'm sure you talked to the cousin about it not being a good or bad situation. So do you feel that maybe, you now, this Keep Them Safe Act did move the needle and we can agree that it's not just a yes or no issue?
DeMora: It is not an issue, and Democrats who think it's an issue aren't where the people want to be. Again, there are things that Republicans and Democrats can agree on, maybe not elected Republicans, but again, polling has shown that red flag laws, that safe storage laws, are widely popular amongst everybody. And those are the things that, again, are not taking guns from anybody, but are common sense things to protect children. Who, I'm sorry, a two-year-old can't learn about a gun. I'm just not capable of doing that. And five and six-year old who are curious about anything they see shiny, again, I mean, making sure that guns and ammo are in different locations so that they find a gun, it's unloaded. If it's not gonna store it, it unloaded and the bullets are kept somewhere else. Again, these are, I said, if you want to defend yourself with a gun you have that right and the Supreme Court and laws have backed up that right. But there's no right to, the children have rights too, not to find a gun lying about the house loaded and shoot themselves or somebody else too. So again, we have to do something that again, the vast majority, 90% of the people agree on, lock boxes, red flag laws, common sense legislation that we should all agree on that Democrats and Republicans can go back and say, listen, now we're trying to do some thing. We're trying stop this, these unwanted children, unwanted dying over guns. Again, we're never in this country going to get to the point that we're going to make guns illegal. It's just not going to happen. It's like that ship is sailed and gun ownership now is a part of American fabric and we're not going anything to change that. But there are things we can do to make the world safer and those are the things we should be working on at the Statehouse.
Juravich: We have been talking to Ohio Senator Bill DeMora about the Keep Them Safe Act, which recently passed. And I want to thank you for your time, Senator DeMora.
DeMora: Absolutely, thank you for having me.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk with the Buckeye Firearms Association, a group that supported the Keep Them Safe Act. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Ohio Democrats and Republicans found some rare middle ground recently on one of the newest gun bills that crossed Governor DeWine's desk. The Keep Them Safe Act allows gun owners to store their guns with registered gun dealers or law enforcement officers during a mental health crisis. The bill had the support of the National Rifle Association and the Buckeye Firearms Association. And here to talk about this bill, as well as other gun legislation in Ohio, is Jim Samuel. The legislative affairs director for the Buckeye Firearms Association. Welcome to the show, Jim.
Jim Samuel: Hi Amy, glad to be here.
Juravich: So I just explained the Keep Them Safe Act in my introduction, we've been talking about the Keep Them Safe act throughout this hour, but why specifically did your group, the Buckeye Firearm Association, decide to support this bill?
Samuel: Well, first of all, it's just a great piece of legislation. As you mentioned, it is bipartisan. I mean, this bill passed in every committee and in every chamber with unanimous support, which is just tremendous. So I have to take a step back and really talk about the history of where the bill came from. So Ohio has a very unique group called Lifeside Ohio. It was essentially created by the Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation. Buckeye Firearms is a supporter of it. It brings together a lot of different groups, whether they're firearms dealers or gun ranges, folks like Blackwing or Vances or Finfeather and Fur across Ohio. Brings them together to break down the stigma as it relates to mental health and suicide and reaches out to a community that is often left behind, and that's gun owners. As, you know, veterans, military. Hunters, law enforcement, and it was in those discussions with those groups that one of the, what we call FFLs, one of the firearms dealers actually said, you know, we would like to get into this area of being able to store firearms for people for many reasons. Most importantly in this discussion is for mental health reasons. But they, but there were some legal challenges to that. And even though they wanted to do the right thing. Um you know they they they wanted to clear up sort of some of the legal ambiguities the legal problems that could occur and so Buckeye firearms got engaged on behalf of those uh those FFLs those uh firearms dealers uh and gun ranges and said we'd love to work on uh on this legislation uh and here we are today where it's going to go into effect on September 17th.
Juravich: Yeah, so the idea of the immunity for the gun shop. So if they give the gun back and something bad happens, the gunshop is not liable. They stored the gun and they have the right to give it back to the person. That was something that was important to your group to have added in, correct?
Samuel: Exactly. I mean, all of it is important to us. But from a legal standpoint, that was the point of the legislation.
Juravich: Yeah, and the bill started an earlier version of it. It started as a way to assist veterans and police officers who were facing mental health struggles. And then lawmakers changed the bill to open it up to be any lawful gun owner can secure their gun. So they can have a secure plan to store the gun temporarily while maybe they get some help. What have you heard from your membership about this idea? Like, do you think they would use it? Like, use the plan, yeah.
Samuel: First of all, from the get-go, the bill was open to all Ohioans. It was never limited to just veterans or military or anything like that. It was always meant to be very broad-based and open to people who would want to participate in it. We've heard good things from it. We have a number of gun dealers, firearms dealers, firearms ranges. We have a number of folks who are excited about it. And prepared to put it into action when it becomes effective on September 17th. Now, I will say there are actually some folks out there who have been doing this because it's the right thing to do. But now they're gonna have the legal clarity that if, God forbid, something horrible should happen that they would not have, as long as they did all the right things, they would have legal liability.
Juravich: Now, the gun shop, if they want to, they're allowed to charge a fee for storing the weapon temporarily. Do you know if they, have you heard from the gunshop owners, would they charge a fee or would they store it for free?
Samuel: To the folks who were very engaged in this, I believe we had four or five of them testify on the bill. None of them planned to charge a fee. If they did, it might be something like $1, just so that there might be an official transaction, so to speak. But in most cases, I don't know of folks saying that they're looking at this as a way to make money. They're looking this as way to do the right thing for the community. And for their customers and the community in which they operate.
Juravich: There's also an anonymous component to it too. So there's no public record of someone handing a gun over. I guess, so it can keep a mental health issue private, basically. Do you think the anonymous component will help people consider using the program too?
Samuel: Well, again, there could be many reasons why you might want to use this. How about somebody in the military who's being deployed for a year and they don't just want their guns at a friend's house or a relative's house? They could utilize this program. So there's more reasons than just mental health. But no, we think, you know, one of the important things is breaking down the stigma when it comes to mental health issues. Folks don't wanna reach out, you now, particularly men. Let's be honest about it. About 80% of suicides are middle-aged men. You know, that's really the bulk of suicides in the state of Ohio. So, you that's a group of people that, let's be honestly, don't always wanna talk about their feelings, don't want to admit to weaknesses and things like that. So. I think anything that can help break down stigma, open up discussions, and in this case, you know, keep their decision anonymous, I think is important.
Juravich: And earlier we talked with Whitney Austin. She was one of the supporters of the bill. She was injured in a mass shooting in Cincinnati. She said that we really need to spread the word so people know that this exists. Is your organization gonna do any promotion to get the word out that the Keep Them Safe Act exists?
Samuel: Absolutely. We have, we have, you know, utilized every, every channel we have so far, all through the process, whether it was when we were testifying in the legislature, or showing up at the at the bill signing ceremony with Governor DeWine and with Senator Kaler, who sponsored the bill. You know, all of our communications channels we have used extensively. Right now, I'm in the process of working with a couple of gun ranges who would like to do an event around the time that the bill becomes effective. Again, to bring more attention to it, get the word out through the media and other means so that people know that this option exists.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about a new gun storage law called the Keep Them Safe Act with Jim Samuel, the Legislative Affairs Director for the Buckeye Firearms Association. A bill that the Buckeye Firearms association does not support is called House Bill 46. It is the Enact Extreme Risk Protection Order Bill. The bill allows family members or law enforcement to obtain a court order to seize a person's firearm. Based on a belief that that person is in danger, is a danger to themselves or others. So why support the Keep Them Safe Act, but not support allowing someone else to say, this person is having a mental health crisis. We should store the gun somewhere else temporarily.
Samuel: Well, first of all, there's a lot of bills in the legislature that deal with firearms. I'm not an expert on all of them. There are literally dozens and dozens of them, and we look at each one of them and make a decision based on everything that's contained in the bill as to whether we support it or not. So why we support a particular piece of legislation over one versus the other. Can often come down to the details of the bill far beyond just the basics that we get from the headlines or from a summary. Our goal at the Buckeye Firearms Association is to ensure the safe and legal ownership for Ohio's 4 million gun owners. We are staunch supporters of the Second Amendment. But at the same time, you know, we we do support wonderful pieces of legislation with like the keep them safe act You know that that helps in in in the realm of mental health and and giving storage options to people
Juravich: So would you support me, like if I know someone who I feel is having a mental health crisis and I know that they have several guns in the home, I mean, would you me taking them to a gun shop and saying, can you store these for person X, please?
Samuel: Well, I mean, that's somebody's personal decision and that's someone's personal property. So I would, of course, encourage you to work with your friend or your family member and have those discussions. But I also work for the Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation. I do a lot of work in that area. Suicides are not just accomplished with firearms. We've had a rash of hangings recently, which was just terrible amongst young people. Uh, you know, lots of drug overdoses and things like that. So, um, you know, overall, I would want somebody to get engaged. I would want you to engage your friend or family member and, and, you know, have a discussion with them, you know, um and, it, it might not just be firearms. It might be other things that, uh, that they're exposed to. So, um, you know to single out firearms, uh that's, that's our big concern is when, when special laws are written. That only pertain to firearms. That's where we get concerned.
Juravich: Well, there are, we're gonna run out of time, but there are a few bills working their way through the House and Senate that the Buckeye Firearms Association does support. Can you pick one of them that you can tell me about right now?
Samuel: Sure. Senate Bill 214 is a bill that deals with suppressors or mufflers. That's what we call them. If you're watching a movie or reading a good Tom Clancy book, you know, you're going to hear it called a silencer. They don't actually make a gun silent. They actually just suppress the noise. Another bill that, you know, has garnered vast bipartisan support. It passed to the Senate. I believe the vote was 32 to one, and now it's pending over in the House. So that, you know, there's another bill where where we do work in a very bipartisan fashion. And it's not that we're trying to work.
Juravich: To do what with the silencers? I'm sorry, I didn't understand.
Samuel: Understand. It would take them, yeah, it would take them out of a list of of what are considered dangerous ordinances under Ohio law. So there's a there's a section of of Ohio law that lists a whole bunch of things called dangerous ordinances and it includes things like nitroglycerin and rocket launchers and and grenades and we're simply trying to remove suppressors from from that list of dangerous ordinance is because. Really by themselves, they're not dangerous at all. I mean, they are just a piece of metal. They don't fire anything. You know, they don't do anything like that. What they do is they reduce the sound, which, you know, just helps people maintain their hearing and is, you know, it's a courtesy quite frankly.
Juravich: What about a law that is in the works where a person, if an adult does not store a weapon properly and a kid gets ahold of it, the adult is more accountable. Do you support that?
Samuel: So that, I mean, obviously we support an adult being accountable for the safety of a child. There is no question about that. So don't confuse what I'm going to say next with thinking we don't support people doing what is proper and, number one, taking care of children. But what you're referring to is, there might even be more than one bill out there that deals with this, but it sets aside You know, again, firearms into a separate classification as opposed to dealing with other dangerous things. So my response and the discussions I've had with legislators about this is, you know, we already have a child endangerment law. So, you, know, a great example in April of twenty twenty six, just a couple of months ago, you had an eight year old bring a loaded handgun to a school. Thankfully, nothing occurred, nothing bad occurred, no one was injured, the police were informed, they came, they took the weapon. But the mother who allowed that to happen was charged with child endangerment, and we would very much support those types of efforts. So it's just the point of making a special law that deals with firearms. When that child could have brought a knife to school, that child would have brought dangerous drugs to school. And any one of those things, the parent should be held accountable. And for that, we have a very good child endangerment law in the state of Ohio. But it doesn't need to be focused and have a special law just for firearms when there's many other things that that child. Could have brought to school that quite frankly should have been secured and the parents should have be aware of it. Whether it's a firearm, a knife, illicit drugs, you know all of those things should be you know should be taken to account when it comes to a child's safety and we absolutely support that.
Juravich: We've been talking with Jim Samuel, the Legislative Affairs Director for the Buckeye Firearms Association. Thank you for your time, Jim.
Samuel: Thank you, it was great to be here.
Juravich: And you've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. Thanks for joining us.