STARS, or Scientists Taking Astronomy to Rural Schools, was created by The Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory.
Their goal is to bring astronomy education to rural schools, which are often underfunded, because as they put it, “the sky belongs to everyone.”
Emma Marcucci, executive director of STARS will join us to discuss the program, how the pilot program went in the spring and the hopes for the full launch of the program happening in the fall.
Steven Brown will be talking about his experience with volunteering at the Whipple Observatory, as an Ohio transplant. The observatory has found that roughly 50% of their volunteers come from Ohio.
Russell Holly is joining us to discuss how Sony will soon be ending the production of physical discs for its PlayStations, leading to questions about the future of the iconic gaming station. He'll also talk about how Ford is reversing its decision after firing veteran engineers for AI and rehiring them after their AI plan flopped.
And with the increase in temperatures around the world, Sony is taking notice with their new personal cooling device.
Guests:
- Emma Marcucci, executive director, Scientists Taking Astronomy to Rural Schools (STARS), Smithsonian Institution
- Steven Brown, Whipple Observatory volunteer
- Russell Holly, director of commerce content, CNET
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. This is Tech Tuesday, a show where we discuss science, technology, and the future of our environment. Look up at night and you're bound to be in awe of the sky above you. But if you're near a major city, that view will be affected by light pollution.
To truly see the stars above, rural communities serve as the best place to see them due to less light pollution But students in those rural communities often don't have the resources to see and understand what the sky holds. Emma Marcucci is the executive director of the Smithsonian scientists taking astronomy to rural schools or STARS program and is trying to make astronomy accessible to all. Welcome to the show, Emma. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Um, and I have to applaud you on a great acronym, scientists taking astronomy to rural schools, spell stars. So that's lovely. I, were you excited when you figured that out?
Emma Marcucci: Yeah, right on target. Right on theme.
Juravich: Yeah, okay. So to start off, you wrote an article about the program and you said that you yourself found the stars to be inspirational to you as a kid. So tell me about why. Why were you drawn to the night sky?
Marcucci: Well, I think it's a natural thing to look up, and I grew up on the East Coast, so I had decent skies. I was in a suburban area, but it wasn't until I actually went camping in the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania and I looked up and saw a fireball or like a really large meteorite go across the sky. And there's just this sense of mystery and curiosity. And sometimes a little daunting and when you look up in the sky and you think about all of this space around you So if for me it was just so many endless possibilities and ways to explore
Juravich: So STARS, or Scientists Taking Astronomy to Rural Schools, provides free telescopes and lesson plans to rural schools in the US where there's less light pollution. So tell me how the program got started. What made you realize that these rural schools could see the stars but needed more telescopes?
Marcucci: So this program grew out of a similar program that our Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory Director Dr. Lisa Cooley had done in Australia. There was a program about telescopes in schools, and when she became the director here at SAO, there was a lot of interest to bring rural communities, or bring the Smithsonian into rural community. We're trying to flip the model when we think about Smithsonian. It's a lot of thinking about coming to the museums in D.C. And so there's been a big push of how do we get outside the museum walls or in the case of SAO, the research center and SAO because it is an astronomy research center has a number of telescopes around the world, including the Whipple Observatory in southern Arizona. And so this idea started growing of how could we combine that unique aspect of telescopes and the hands-on exploration of science with this desire to go beyond the museum walls.
Juravich: Is the goal of stars to have kids pursue astronomy, or is the goal just to increase their knowledge of the night sky?
Marcucci: I would say it's a little bit of both. So really, astronomy, as we were talking about earlier, is a great gateway science. There's the sense of inspiration. There's a sense of curiosity. It's also very interdisciplinary. So you can use astronomy to explore concepts of chemistry or physics, engineering. And so using astronomy as a way to broaden participation in STEM.
And inspire the next generation, whether they become astronomers, whether they become scientists, or whether they're someone who can just explore and enjoy the sky above them and develop their science identity. If they see something in the news, they see how they are part of that community. So for me, it's really addressing those kids that say, I'm not a science person. How can we invite them into and use astronomy to invite them into STEM.
Juravich: Well, and in the article you wrote that exposed us to your program, you mentioned how educators don't feel equipped and can be intimidated teaching certain STEM topics. So you provide them with support to teach these topics. I mean, tell me about how you're supporting the educators so that they know what they're doing.
Marcucci: Absolutely. So a big core value of our program is that this is a program that is a value add for the teachers, but not a work add for teachers. So we know that they're very busy. They have a lot of different things to cover. So we're trying to make sure they feel empowered and comfortable and have everything they need. Of course, astronomy is a science. So there is some degree in using a telescope. There is some of degree of technology.
But we are designing all of our material to meet national and statewide science standards, so it's easy for them to incorporate into their program. We're also doing training in advance of the program. So before they receive their telescope, they'll receive science content and training on all the different materials. They'll receive, Smithsonian staff and scientists help them with the initial launch in the school. So they'll have the telescope. They'll unbox the telescope with their class, and then we'll come in and address any questions. We'll help get them trained on how to use the telescope.
The telescope we chose is a really nice beginner telescope. And in addition to that initial startup, we want to make sure they feel supported after they have the program. Consequently, we're developing a community of practice or kind of a teacher's forum where They're able to share their challenges and successes. They're are able to a new project ideas. And we're also able to with them new opportunities, new resources, do science briefings so that they stay connected with what's happening in the scientific community and being able to tie that into their program.
Juravich: This is Tech Tuesday from all sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking with Emma Marcucci, the Executive Director of the Smithsonian Scientists Take Astronomy to Rural Schools, also known as the STARS program. Are these topics being taught, like are you leaning into K-12? Are you trying to, like what age is the ideal age here?
Marcucci: So we are aiming to be a K-12 program. What we would love is that students start to get introduced to the program when they're young, and then they're able to grow with the program throughout their time in school. So we're developing projects for different grade bands, K to two, three to five, then middle school and high school, and always having a way for them to advance with the project, even beyond our lesson plans, connecting into participatory science projects. Um, in terms of the curriculum or the standards, middle school is tends to be the area when, um, most, uh, science curriculum hit starts to talk about astronomy, but there are lots of activities you can do with younger kids to start introducing them to the ideas and then giving room to grow for the high school students.
Juravich: So what feedback are you receiving from the schools about who have already received these materials? Because, I mean, you were saying you're trying to not give the teachers more work, you're trying to make it as easy as possible. Talk to me about the feedback.
Marcucci: Yeah, so across the board, everyone has been really excited, particularly we are launching the program in Arizona and Arizona has so much aerospace and astronomy industry that teachers are really excited to bring this potential career opportunity or this connection to an economy that's in their state. And they have really great ideas. We have teachers who are thinking about developing after-school astronomy clubs, because of course school is during the day, so that does limit what you can see with a telescope.
We've also had teachers that are already starting to think about how they could incorporate this lesson into the physics demonstration about motion that they have to do. So they're really excited on that. And then on some of the lessons learned that we've had, it really is focused on how to make it as easy as possible for them to use. So that is instead of trying to create full curricula, we're really focusing on how can the telescope really be uniquely used and so being very specific and kind of having piecemeal lessons. So they can do an entire lesson plan and we'll pair things together. But if they also just need a classroom activity to start introducing the concept and then an observing-based activity, we allow them that ability to customize it for what makes sense for their school and students.
Juravich: Earlier, I mentioned that a lot of the United States is impacted by light pollution. Can you tell me what light pollution is?
Marcucci: Everywhere. So light pollution is that random light or not, I guess not random light, but the light that is basically all around us. It's the street lights, it's the lights of a building that have, that are on during night. And it's what causes that glow. If you look out into a horizon and you see a glow, you can pretty much guess that there's a some sort of city or large town in in that direction, and if. Starts to block our view of the light because it kind of lifts up the base level of brightness and many stars you need to have dim light and for our eyes to be able to perceive them. So light pollution is what affects us when we're in a city and it impedes us being able to see those wonderful night skies.
Juravich: I grew up in more of a suburban area, but 10 miles from an airport. I would say that light pollution was probably even worse than a city, right? In a city, right?
Marcucci: Yes, yes. Planes need to be able to see the land. So there are definitely reasons to have light. And there's been lots of wonderful work to try to balance where light is needed and also preserving our night skies.
Juravich: So how rural do we have to be to have no light pollution or at least less light pollution? I mean, are we talking like quite literally the middle of nowhere?
Marcucci: Yeah, well, you know, I've been in some places recently that have gotten really dark really quickly Speaking of airports one town that is really good with their light pollution policies is Tucson, Arizona And I remember the first time I flew in there at night as I was leaving the airport. It very quickly got very dark Um, and it was, it was kind of as if someone driving, it was a little bit of a hazard. But if you're in these places, um, that are thinking about dark skies, you can get good skies pretty quickly, but it does take a concentrated effort to think about what those policies should be.
Juravich: So you mentioned that you're launching this program in Arizona. What are your plans to bring it to other states? I sit here in Ohio feeling like jealous. I want my elementary and middle school students to have exposure to this. Yeah.
Marcucci: Absolutely. So the STARS program is currently funded entirely through philanthropic gifts. And so where we expand is influenced by where we're able to fundraise to a degree. We have received very generous gifts for Rhode Island and Delaware. So we're starting to expand across the country. Um, but we also don't want people to necessarily be waiting on us. Um, so we, all of our material, the lesson plan material will be available online if someone were interested to, uh, if they happen to have their own telescope or they wanted to start doing the classroom activity is, um, and then we are actively working on a fundraising strategy so we can start rolling it out to different states.
Juravich: Now, your acronym stands for Scientists Taking Astronomy to Rural Schools, so you're focusing rural though, right? Not inner-city schools? Okay.
Marcucci: Yes, yes, we're focusing on rural. We use the definitions from the National Center for Education Statistics as an initial starting point. But we would love to be able to expand out to maybe some of those fringe communities or, you know, eventually, as funding allows, incorporate more folks. And again, having all of that material online. So if someone were able to have a telescope or work with an amateur astronomy group or local university students. They would still be able to participate in those activities.
Juravich: Do you find that like bigger city school districts have maybe more grants to be found? They can have access to telescopes or more astronomy education? Is that why you wanna lean into the rural? Or is it just purely because in rural school districts, you can see the stars better? Yes. Yeah.
Marcucciennes: So there's definitely a component of resources. Rural schools tend to be underfunded compared to their urban counterparts or suburban counterparts. And so they have less funding per student. So that opportunity gap in combination with the dark skies is a unique place.
Juravich: Um, so here in Ohio, um, we, you know, have big connections to astronauts and NASA and that kind of thing. And we also near Columbus in Newark, Ohio, we have a UNESCO World Heritage Site called the Hopewell Earthworks. It's considered a sophisticated ancient lunar observatory. It is the history of astronomy at all a part of this curriculum?
Marcucci: Absolutely. And thank you for sharing that about Ohio. I did not know about that site. That sounds fascinating. So one of the things that I really like about astronomy are those historical and cultural connections. When I was a postdoc in Alaska, I really started getting interested in that. And so one thing we do want to do as we tailor the lesson plans, not just for individual state science standards, but what is also the place-based historical or cultural context. To incorporate into the material.
Juravich: Oh, so you spent some time in Alaska, so no wonder you got to see a really good night's guy, didn't you?
Marcucci: Yes, yes, and lots of it.
Juravich: For any parent or caregiver or someone listening right now who doesn't have access to the STARS program yet What do you what's your recommendation for introducing their kids to astronomy? Maybe just on their own if it's if it it's just like a a few-week lesson in school, but they want to dive in deeper
Marcucci: So, I mean, start by going outside and looking up, seeing what you can see. We've had a lot of planets out recently that really stand out. And so the basis of science is asking questions. So start looking at the sky, seeing, what's out.
And then there's wonderful resources that can help kind of navigate the sky. That material as for stars will be on our website soon. But there's also wonderful resources within NASA, within our ground-based observatories. If there is an observatory nearby, like the Whipple Observatory or, you know, Kitt Peak, many observatories around, try exploring that. Many towns also have amateur astronomers that will do star parties or have monthly talks. So those would be great ways to start exploring and also making local connections.
Juravich: Do you have to have a telescope or if you happen to have a pair of binoculars, can you start there too?
Marcucci: Absolutely. And you could even start just with your eyes. There's lots you can see. And with good binoculars, you can start to see some really interesting features as well.
Juravich: We've been talking about teaching stargazing to kids, and we've been with Emma Marcucci, the executive director of the Smithsonian Scientists Take Astronomy to Rural Schools, the STARS program. Thank you so much for your time today, Emma. Thank you, so much, Amy. It was a pleasure to be here. And coming up, we're gonna talk to a transplant Ohioan that is pursuing a passion for astronomy as a volunteer at an observatory. That is when Tech Tuesday from all sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to Tech Tuesday from all sides with Amy Juravich, a show where we share stories about science, technology, and the future of our environment. We were just speaking with Emma Marcucci about the Rural Night Sky Program. In researching this segment, we were surprised to learn that many of the volunteers for Whipple Observatory located in Arizona are transplants from Ohio who traded the overcast gray skies for expansive views of the cosmos at night. Joining us now is Steven Brown, a volunteer at Whipple Observatory in Arizona. Welcome to the show, Steven. Thank you. So I understand a large number of volunteers working with the observatory where you are, are from Ohio. Now, while you were born and raised next door in Indiana, you spent four decades working as an engineer in the northeastern part of the state. So let's start with you. How did your work with power plants prepare you for what you're doing now as a volunteer?
Steven Brown: Well, I was an engineer power plant. So the technology and things just kind of intrigue me and the science of, of the skies. I remember when I was a young boy growing up on a farm that, you know, it was good see the sky is so clearly being in dark skies. And it's always been an interest to me since then I built my own telescope when My kids were young and we looked at the skies then. It's just been a big interest in mine.
Juravich: How did you end up going from Ohio to Arizona and then therefore volunteering with this program eventually?
Brown: Well, we went out there vacationing several years and and my wife her health just made her let her feel better in the sunny atmospheres, I think and so we decided to retire there and Probably within three months. I think it was after we moved there I decided I needed to do something besides just sit around and other things. And with my interest in science and astronomy, I decided to go to the Whipple Observatory, which is only about 20 miles from where we live. So it was just a natural thing for me, I guess.
Juravich: And when did you figure out when you were there that a lot of the volunteers were also from Ohio?
Brown: I mean, you start talking to him, it's not a big group at this point. And, you know, I started there before COVID, it was a lot bigger then. And, but, yeah, you talk to people and hell yeah, from, you know, Dayton area, Toledo area, and Cincinnati, Columbus. And I, you, I was in Northeast Ohio most of my working career.
Juravich: Do you have any idea why so many people from Ohio end up volunteering at this particular observatory? Do all Ohioans just like the night sky?
Brown: Um You know, I can't answer for everybody else, that's been mine. But I think the diverse interest and the diverse careers that people have in Ohio pretty much is something that drives your interest to see and learn more about things in science and that, and being at the Whipple Observatory is really, you know, gathered. Or increase my knowledge of of things I didn't even imagine before and that's just just very interesting to me just I like that.
Juravich: Yeah, so when we were researching this segment, we found out that no matter how many volunteers Whipple Observatory has at any given time, more than 50% of them are from Ohio. So, do you feel like they were trading in the overcast gray skies for sunnier Arizona? And then, therefore, after the sun goes down, they were like, oh, we can see the stars. Is that what you were leaning toward there?
Brown: Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean, that's what's nice about where I live. And most of the volunteers live in a town, Green Valley, which is about 25 miles south of Tucson. So you're away from the dark skies and you don't have to go very far out of Green Valley to get into dark skies where you can see so many stars. It's just beautiful.
Juravich: Now, do you focus all your stargazing on your time when you're at Whipple or do you have your own telescope? Are you doing it at home too?
Brown: Oh, yeah, I have a couple of telescopes that I take her with. I don't have the best backyard. So if I got a trees around, so if I want to see things, I have to go out into the more open areas to be able to get to the places I can do that.
Juravich: What about astronomy and the night sky fascinates you? Why did you decide of all the volunteering you could have done, why this?
Brown: Well, it's just the Whipple Observatory is very unique and it has a wide, a lot of different types of telescopes. So one of the things that I've centered my interest toward and I do conduct tours of the gamma ray telescopes that we have at the level of the visitor's center.
The Whipple observatory is in different. Altitudes three different altitudes of bases and the visitor center is the lowest one and that's where the gamma ray telescopes are which are the only gamma ray telescope in the United States so it's really something that we take pride in and I try to learn as much about that as I can to give that to the tour people that come around and the guests and teach them about what we have there.
Juravich: Well, okay, so I've never been to the Whipple Observatory, and I also don't know what a gamma ray telescope does, so tell me, yeah.
Brown: And so what those telescopes there are four large 12 meter distance that that's not gamma rays, gamma rays don't make it through our, our atmosphere, but they interact with the molecules in the outer atmosphere and eventually come down and create shrink off radiation, which is a blue light that you see around nuclear reactors. If you see pictures of a nuclear reactor or fuel in a pool, that's what we detect. And gamma rays come from the most energetic parts of the universe, neutron stars, binary stars, black holes, so you're really getting the feel for the things that are really producing the energy out in the universe with those telescopes.
Juravich: When you're giving tours and volunteering, are you talking to adults or children? Who is your audience?
Brown: Mostly adults at this time and with the after covid our volunteer staff went down quite a bit. So we can only support being open on Fridays at this time. We're going to try next this coming fall to be open on an extra day.
But on Fridays, we don't get too many children. But and most of the are you know fellow retirees that live in Green Valley that they can see the telescope that's on top of Mount Hopkins right at the observatory, which is 8,500 feet in elevation. And they see that from Green Valley all the time. So they keep, they start wondering, oh, gee, I wonder what that is up there. And so they come up to the visitor center to learn about that.
Juravich: So I guess being on this radio show here in Columbus, it could be a little bit of a recruiting element for you because you said you need more volunteers and if half your volunteers are always from Ohio, so put a call out to retired Ohioans moving to Arizona.
Brown: Come on out. If you're going to live there, go ahead and volunteer, Whipple. It's a great place. We have great people there.
Juravich: Yeah. So what, I mean, what specifically have, have you gained from your volunteering time with the observatory? Um, how has it benefited you?
Brown: Well, I like to tell people that my volunteering at the Whipple Observatory keeps my mind sharp. I feel that I have to research gamma rays and where they come from when I'm not there and I do. I do volunteer at a food bank and I feel that I tell people, that's what I do for other people. But the Whipple Observatory, even though I'm giving knowledge to other people, it's kind of for me to keep my mind sharp.
Juravich: We spent the previous segment talking about a STARS program. It's called Scientists Take Astronomy to Rural Schools, and it's run by the Smithsonian. And they're starting it in Arizona, so with less light pollution and better night skies there. And they are trying to get more students interested, especially in rural school districts, to stargazing and astronomy. What would you say to help entice younger people to, you know, give stargazing a try.
Brown: Well, I mean, especially the school, you know, I know several of the schools that they're going to in the area that we live in, and they're definitely in the rural areas and they go out at night anytime and they can see the stars. So why not learn more about it? The stars program is going to give them the access to the telescope that they need to be able to look at it at the stars and and find out more about the beginnings and what's happening with the universe as it progresses and its growth at that.
Juravich: Did you, I mean, growing up here in Deanna, Ohio, did you learn about astronomy in school as a young person?
Brown: Well, I'm kind of fortunate in my high school. It was a consolidation when I went into my sophomore year, they built a new high school and it had a planetarium in it. And I took a course in my school years in astronomy. So that kind of got it kicked off for me and kept my interest or started my interest.
Juravich: And you, I mean, you worked at a power plant and you pursued engineering as a career. Talk to me about, you know, learning a STEM, the STEM fields in school. Does it, what do you think it could inspire future students to do if they focus in on either astronomy or just STEM in general, learning more science?
Brown: Oh, well, yeah, being an engineer myself, I have a big, you know, I always tell people to get as much science and math and engineering as they possibly can in school. You know, if they don't go into that field, fine, but you got to have that base, I think, to just understand what's going on in your own little world.
Juravich: This is Tech Tuesday from all sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about astronomy and volunteering with Buckeye turned Arizona volunteer Stephen Brown, who is a volunteer at Whipple Observatory in Arizona. Just before we end, can you tell me something else that you do at the Whipple observatory as a part of your volunteering? What other duties do you have?
Brown: Um Well, when I first arrived on a day that we go there, I help set up the exhibits, turn them on, make sure they're functioning, and that, make sure the people are safe as they come in, park safely, and stay on the places. So keeping people safe is a big thing for us, And eventually, hopefully... We'll get tours started. Right now, we don't take tours up to the high points in the observatory, the upper mountain areas. We hope to eventually, but I hope to get involved in those tours and go up and help people see that.
Juravich: What is something that you've seen in the night sky that's impressed you the most?
Brown: Oh, I think always the Milky Way is gonna be something that just amazes you. And then, well, just in the past couple of years, some of the comets that have appeared, you can see so well in Arizona. I was up on the mountain one night with our big telescope at the observatory and the comet was so bright and it was really interesting to see that there.
Juravich: Well, I want to thank you so much for telling me about your experience. We've been talking with Stephen Brown, a volunteer at the Whipple Observatory in Arizona, and we've been taking about astronomy volunteering and why perhaps so many volunteers at the whipple observatory are from the Buckeye State, including Stephen. Thank you for your time today, Stephen.
Brown: Thanks, my pleasure.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk about all things tech from the end of the PlayStation disks to fans that may be a solution for some summer extreme heat. That is when tech Tuesday from all sides continues on 89 seven NPR news.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. This is Tech Tuesday, a show where we share stories about science, technology, and the future of our environment. Sony will soon be ending the production of physical disks for its PlayStations, leading to questions about the future of the iconic gaming station. And in other Sony news, there was an increase in temperatures around the world. Sony is taking notice and making profits, now shipping their personal cooling device to the US. Plus, we will talk about Ford reversing a decision after firing veteran engineers for AI and then rehiring them after their AI plan flopped. Here to discuss all these topics and more, we have Russell Holly, Director of Commerce Content for CNET. Welcome back to All Sides, Russell.
Russell Holly: Thank you.
Juravich: I wanted to start with Sony, and they're planning to stop making physical disks for PlayStation games. What is the reason? Why no more physical disks?
Holly: So, I mean, the reason is really twofold. The first is there's just not nearly enough people buying disks anymore. You can take a look that, you know, every year there is a report that comes out about how much physical video game spending is compared. In 2025, that dropped to $1.5 billion for all physical media across the brands, which was a 28% drop from 2021. It had just been steadily decreasing as more and more people are happy to pick up, you know, either digital games or used versions of physical games that don't count as a part of that metric from stores like GameStop or Walmart in places like that. But the end of the day is that, you now, there is a math point in which Sony has to decide when it is actually no longer worth it to keep making those physical disks. And what Sony believes is that by the beginning of 2028... That when physical disks go away that they just won't be missed much.
Juravich: They won't be missed much except maybe if you run a store like GameStop, right is that
Holly: Well, I mean, the thing is that there are just a ton of edge cases in which having a physical disk is really important. And, you know, Sony is going to receive the same kind of backlash that has existed in the past. Microsoft tried a version of this two generations of its console ago where they decided that there would be a world without physical disks and it was too early. You know places like military bases where having an internet connection in order to play games is not something that is useful But it is something that benefits you know soldiers in their time off You know people who don't have reliable internet connection because they live you know either in a rural area or you know The the physical disks are just cheaper when you go to buy them used because other people have you know used them and Played the game that they want to play and traded them in Uh, you know, but that really kind of comes around to the second reason that this is happening, uh, for, for a lot of these game changes is that a lot of the video games that you buy on a physical disk right now don't actually contain the game anymore. Uh, the games are actually so big storage wise that they contain, uh what is essentially a license that allows the console to go and download that game. Onto your console, but there was never actually a data transfer from the disk to your hard drive. And that's something that's been happening with big games for a couple years now.
Juravich: So is Sony banking on that by 2028, the internet will be better and everyone will have it everywhere?
Holly: I think they've just decided that the Band-Aid has to come off at some point and that the edge cases are not making them enough money to justify them being vocal about this being a bad thing for them personally over the people who are quite happy to buy digital games and then not worry about the resale market.
Juravich: Does this decision hint at the new PlayStation 6 release? Will it look different, be different, if it doesn't have to have the slot for the game or anything?
Holly: Sure. So I mean, this generation for the PlayStation and the Xbox, both versions of the consoles came out with a diskless version. So that was a version that you could buy. It was $100 cheaper than the regular version of the console. It's something that Microsoft and Sony have both been keen to do for a while now. And the idea there is that it's easier to repair because there are fewer moving parts.
And, you know, the disk version is something that is an additional expense that goes into the console but You know, you don't have to look too far to see what the financial consequences are to this for gamers in particular. You know go to the Nintendo eShop where Nintendo has owned all of their games for a very long time and there are games that came out a decade ago that are still available for their full price, the exact same price that they were available for 10 years ago via Nintendo's eShops. And the reason for that is they can and people will continue to pay money for that kind of stuff. But if you walk into any GameStop or Walmart, there is always a used game section where you can save a couple bucks to get a game. And that is something that will disappear when this change happens.
Juravich: What are some downsides to everything being online? No physical games, besides what you were saying about the internet problems. I mean, are there any other downsides?
Holly: I mean, the biggest thing is that you stop owning the games that you have purchased. Alongside this announcement, Sony made some changes to its DVD catalog for a game, for movies that you had purchased through the Sony store, and there are quite a few people who, you know, bought and owned licenses to movies. That are no longer available in that store anymore. So they paid for a thing that they can no longer access because Sony made a change for, you know, a license agreement or something like that. And there's very little recourse for people who make those decisions. If Sony decided in 2029 that the games that they started selling back in 1995 weren't things that they needed to worry about anymore, those games effectively disappear unless you have a physical disk.
Juravich: Mm.
Holly: And so for folks who enjoy playing older games or who appreciate kind of the history of games and wanna keep that kind of living legacy there, then that is a really significant problem for kind of, the capture of history, if only for the capture of your own personal belongings that you paid money for.
Juravich: Yeah, and which company did you say did this and it was too soon to do it?
Holly: Yeah, so Microsoft attempted a version of this a couple years back, and the response was so incredibly negative that not only did Microsoft immediately reverse that decision, but Sony released a video making fun of Microsoft for it. This was more than a decade ago.
Juravich: Okay, so I live in a Switch household. We only have one gaming system, shock and awe, I know. But so I would say half our games are digital and half are actual little cards, whatever they're called. Is this gonna happen with Nintendo games in the future too?
Holly: I think Nintendo has found that there's still quite a benefit in the way that game trading works and there are still quite few games that actually fit on the special cartridges that they make for, you know, those consoles, so I wouldn't expect a change like this right away. Nintendo also has a fairly advanced system for sharing games with friends.
If you are physically in the same place as someone, even though you have purchased a digital version of the game, you can loan that game to another person on a Switch, as long as they have their Switch nearby, and it's something that you can set times for, like, when that game comes back to you, as a way of digital lending. And so if Microsoft and Sony were to offer a version of this, then it may kind of blunt this a little bit. But I think it's going to upset some long-time gamers for a while when this change actually come through.
Juravich: Yeah, I saw a video where they were saying that this is Gen Z's version of losing Blockbuster because they haven't had the big loss yet, but millennials are used to the loss of lots of physical media.
Holly: It's very true. Yeah, I think the biggest issue there is going to be questions around licensing and ownership. If you're spending money on a game, if you're spinning $100 on a gain, which is what we're seeing some of these prices aiming to be within the next year, do you actually own that game in five years, in 10 years? That's a really difficult question to answer right now, and it shouldn't be.
Juravich: All right, well, pivoting to other Sony news, they are now shipping their personal cooling device, the Rion Pocket Pro Plus, to the U.S. Now, it's been available in Japan since 2019. So, first of all, tell me about this device is different than a small personal fan. Can you explain what it does, maybe describe what it looks like a little bit?
Holly: Absolutely, so if you see people walking around in the very very hot days that we've had recently with a fan of some kind It's usually one that gets either worn around the neck or a hand fan or something that hangs from from a string It's very clear that they're wearing a fan It's a very obvious that they are you know what they're doing and you can usually hear the fan Which is a thing that I personally have a distaste for but the thing that Sony's been working on here is More about instead of moving air at being the primary focus is actually cooling you down And doing so without producing heat elsewhere, which is something that a lot of like personal cooling devices have a problem with is that the battery itself generates heat, which, you know, kind of causes an aerobarous of silliness there.
So what this does is it is flat on its back and has a steel plate that is exposed on the back of this thing and it sits on the hooks that come through and rest on your shoulders. And it uses far more gentle airflow to cool down that metal plate, which is essentially applying a cold compress to the back of your neck at all times and giving you control over how cool that thing is, you know, becoming over time.
Juravich: Yeah, and the device has been available in Japan for quite some time. Why is it just now coming to the U.S.?
Holly: I think that there's just a growing market for it. I think the idea of neck fans and hand fans and things like that have really become quite a bit more popular here in the States over the last two or three years, where you just didn't see nearly as many of them. And I think, as we discussed a couple weeks ago, there's a growing audience for folks willing to spend slightly more than $20 on these things.
And that's where this really comes into play, is that Sony has made this thing and it is undeniably effective in all of the tests that have been put through it. It does better than just about anything that we currently have. It is an insane $260.
Juravich: Yeah, $260 is a lot more than any little fan that I've ever bought. I own like two or three of these little personal fans that clip on. I mean, come on,$ 260, is it worth that price?
Holly: Even the really nice shark one that we were talking about a couple weeks ago is $150. So for this to be $110 more, it really needed to be considerably better. And the thing is, it is. It does the job really well. It is nice and quiet. You can feel the cooling effect almost immediately. It is undeniably more effective than using just a thing that is blowing air at you.
But it is incredibly expensive. So this is the kind of thing that I think is more likely that we will see clones of this over the next year or two, and that will make that cost come down really significantly. So, this is a really interesting thing to look at, not as a thing that i'm saying everyone should go and buy right this second, because $260 is a crazy amount to spend on something like that, but it is a very interesting look at what future versions of those fans are going to look like.
Juravich: Well, yeah, it's interesting because, you know, everyone walking around a fair with a fan I feel like is a new phenomenon in the United States. Like, I don't I remember people wearing fans around their necks in line at an amusement park just even like five years ago. So so maybe did Americans just want to sit in their sweat and deal with it until now? Yeah. Yeah.
Holly: I think we're just understanding that you can't just dress your way out of the heat changes that we're all experiencing, so having these fans, I think, is kind of the next step there.
Juravich: This is Tech Tuesday From All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about some recent tech news with Russell Holly, Director of Commerce, Content for CNET. Ford is rehiring human developers after firing them in favor of AI. So this is after an AI plan flopped for Ford. Who are these people that they are hiring back?
Holly: If you ask the folks at Ford, they have an internal nickname for them called Greybeard Engineers. These are folks who have been around for a while. They understand all of the ins and outs of not just, you know, kind of the Ford networking system and kind of all of ways in which they communicate with one another, but ... The tools that they use in order to create new vehicles and quality control environments and things like that. These are these are folks that have been with the company for quite some time and they were part of the more than 20,000 jobs that have been released over the last couple of years from automotive companies.
Juravich: OK, so Ford, well, all automotive companies released thousands of jobs. They supposedly hired back about 350 engineers. 350 is a lot, not compared to 20,000, but still. And then this term graybeard. Thoughts on that term? Are they all men, apparently?
Holly: Probably a predominant amount of them, but I think it just speaks to them having been around for quite some time and having some institutional knowledge that AI just simply couldn't replicate. And I think that that's what the thing that a lot of companies, there are stories out about Uber and Domino's Pizza and a bunch of other places where they made this very quick dive into AI because it was going to be less expensive and allow them to innovate much quicker.
And then, over the course of 2026, AI tools have gotten incredibly more expensive. In many cases, they went from a thing that you were paying maybe 120, 250 bucks a month to, in some cases, being tens of thousands of dollars for very similar tasks. And that is kind of the tech business model in many ways, is to release something for as cheap as possible. And when you have a critical mass of users, then you can stop subsidizing that cost and start to have some of the actual costs that come in for this sort of thing.
And this is the rebalancing that you're seeing as a part of that. Ford is seeing that AI tokens and the way in which you use AI to do things, that there are some tasks that it is still much better to have a person for. And I suspect that this is a trend that we will see throughout the rest of this year and likely early next year as all of these AI costs continue to go up, is companies deciding how to be. A little more frugal with their AI budgets and that translating into humans being back in some of these places.
Juravich: Do we know specifically like what AI plan flopped or was it just a series of things and they hired back particular engineers to do certain things?
Holly: Uh, you know, the board's been pretty quiet about as many of the details as possible. I know that there are, you know, a lot of the kind of automated systems for things like how vehicle recalls are handled and, you know, some of the, the systems around. Warranty replacement systems and like all of the software that governs all of those things are you know There's a lot of human beings involved in those tools And so I think that those were probably some of the first places that they thought that they could save some money But as was noted by Ford's chief operating officer is that They just weren't getting the desired results from the quality systems that were fully automated
Juravich: Did the gray beards also walk away with institutional knowledge that was lost, and maybe they didn't transfer it to AI?
Holly: I'm sure that that is absolutely the case. AI is something that only really works well as long as the information you give it is as accurate as possible. And if that information was stored in someone's head and not written down somewhere, then that could cause some real problems.
Juravich: Yeah. And in just the minute we have left, I guess it poses the question of whether AI will truly take over many of these engineering jobs. I mean, what do you think? Maybe.
Holly: I suspect that in many cases this will be used as an assistive tool for quite a while in the future, where it will be use as a way to help, but I think there are many companies learning the hard way right now that trying to completely replace people is just not something these tools are ready for, and likely won't be for quite some time.
Juravich: And you gave Ford as an example, other automakers probably, and then you gave Domino's as an example, are other companies gonna do this too, where they're gonna bring back humans?
Holly: It probably won't be as loud as what we've seen from Ford and Domino's, but yes, I suspect that this will very much be the case as we kind of navigate the rest of this year in particular.
Juravich: Well, yeah, because it's Domino's and Ford are making some headlines. Other companies will probably try to do it a little more quietly.
Holly: That would be a much better idea for them, yes.
Juravich: Well, we have been talking about some recent tech news with Russell Holly, director of commerce content for CNET. Thank you so much for your time today, Russell.
Holly: Thanks for having me.
Juravich: I want to say thanks to the AllSides staff, producers Marcus Charleston and Erin Esmont-Rabinowitz, student producers Iza Huck, Colin Simpson and Brianna Fortunate, and our student producer at Denison University is Ellen Hanson, video production by the Ohio Channel, board operation by Chris Johnston and Trey Hayes. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. Thanks for listening.