School may be out soon, but the challenge for parents is how to keep kids reading over the summer.
We check in on how the switch to the science of reading is going and how it’s reshaping literacy education.
Gov. Mike DeWine pushed for the change, citing persistent lagging reading scores.
How have colleges and universities changed how they teach reading teachers? And will it keep kids from falling behind?
Guests:
- Megan Henry, reporter, Ohio Capital Journal
- Moira Konrad, associate professor of special education, Ohio State University
- Margo Shipp, literacy specialist, Riverside Local Schools
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Educators will tell you, reading is not just another subject in school. It's the foundation for every subject, and for navigating life for that matter. Everything from reading menus to road signs to math problems on screens.
So knowing that, many are watching what happens with reading and literacy as more states, Ohio included, mandate the phonics-driven science of reading. Governor Mike DeWine pushed for the change in 2023, dismayed by the persistent drop in reading scores, and told universities to get on board, or else.
And here to give us an update on, here to us an is Ohio Capital Journal reporter Megan Henry. She has a recent article on the topic, and it's titled, "What Impact is the Science of Reading Having So Far in Ohio's Classrooms and on College Campuses?" Welcome back to All Sides, Megan. Thanks for having me.
So this is the second full school year that Ohio is required the educators to teach what is called the science of reading curriculum. And it's in the more than 600 school districts that the state has. But can you remind us what is the science of reading, how is it different from the way things used to be taught?
Megan Henry: Yes, so essentially, there are various ways that you can teach a student how to read, and the science of reading is a form of curriculum. It's basically based on decades of research that show how the human brain learns to read and incorporates phonics, fluency, vocabulary, and comprehension. So essentially, it's just a specific way to teach students how to reach during kindergarten.
Juravich: Okay, but this is not the way that it's always been taught, or is it a newer method or do some schools teach it and some didn't? Like it wasn't universal is what I'm trying to say.
Henry: Correct, yes. Now there is a statewide mandate that school districts, as you mentioned, have to teach this way. But previously, there are other ways to teach students how to read.
There is this way called balanced literature, balanced literacy, where it's a bit of a different philosophy and it encourages students as part of what's called the three-queuing. That encourages students that they come across a word they don't know to kind of guess, in a sense, of look at the word, what makes sense, We'll get the pictures. The con.
Juravich: The context clues. Yeah.
Henry: Yes, the context clues. However, the issue with that is the word could be horse and they still look at the picture and they guess or say pony and it's like, well, that's not the word.
So essentially that is another way to teach reading that is now actually banned in Ohio because of this mandate. And so previously it was kind of a mixed bag of school districts teaching various ways. There was no way to really see which district. At the state level was teaching what, but now they have to do the science of reading.
Juravich: Okay, and Governor DeWine really was the catalyst for this change in 2023. Like he decided that we were going to make this change and that school districts are going to change the way they teach reading. What convinced him that he needed to overhaul the curriculum from like such a high level instead of letting school districts handle it?
Henry: Yeah, it was really a few things. One was the declining reading scores, as you mentioned. Also, the science of reading, it's not like a new concept. It really started gaining steam probably around 2019. It really starting in Mississippi where they overhauled the state's approach to reading.
They had incredibly low test scores down in Mississippi. And over time in six years, they noticed an improvement actually on the National Assessment of Education progress in the students' reading scores. And so that really started gaining folks' attention across the country as to what happened in Mississippi, which is now referred to as the Mississippi miracle.
And so then states kind of started looking into this. There was also this podcast series called "Sold a Story" that really dove into reading and science of reading. And so, that came out in 2022.
And so it was kind of a combination of. Ohio's poor reading scores. I think folks were just kind of gaining traction through this podcast and also seeing educators were seeing what was happening in Mississippi and started wondering if we could replicate that in other states.
Juravich: Every state wanted the miracle.
Henry: Yes, every state won the miracle. And now almost all of them do. Now, as of the end of March, I believe it was 42 states require.
Juravich: Essentially. All right. I didn't realize it was that many. At his State of the State speech, Governor DeWine talked about unfinished business. Let's listen.
Speaker 4: Let's begin with reading. Reading is the key to everything, so it's essential that children learn early about the importance of books and reading. The evidence is clear, that the best way to teach children how to read is through the science of reading. We know that a complete transition to the science of read is challenging, can't be achieved overnight.
Juravich: So in that speech, he laid out a four-part plan, creating regional teams to ensure the correct implementation and access to the program, adding some more reading coaches, offering free coaching and training.
But what he's basically saying there is, is just saying, you need to change the way we teach reading in the districts. You can't snap your fingers and make it happen, because first of all, you have to teach all the teachers the new way, but then you also have to teach... Future teachers who are learning currently to become teachers to teach the new way, right? So this is like, there's a lot involved here, right, Megan?
Henry: Correct, yeah, this is not like an overnight change. And we like to see change immediately, or in the next school year, we expect to see a change. But this doesn't quite happen that way, as we saw in Mississippi. It took years to really see scores change.
So as you mentioned, there are really kind of two facets of Ohio's law. There's the K-12, requiring schools to teach the certain way and for teachers to go through professional development and be kind of re-taught and essentially, like how to teach reading to students.
There's also this higher ed facet to the law as well that requires colleges and universities in Ohio to teach future educators how to teach through the science of reading.
Juravich: Um you know was was dewine in his speech and just making that announcement it was a knowledge acknowledgement that things were not he was kind of saying things weren't moving fast enough in his mind i mean did he did he want things to go faster like what was he just he seemed a little i i don't know a little taken aback that it hadn't been completed
Henry: Yeah, well, it is interesting. So in the most recent state report cards that came out in September, Ohio's literary scores did actually decrease a little bit. There was a slight dip. 61% of third graders were reading at or above grade level compared to 64% the year prior. So there's a bit of a dip.
However, The State Education Department, Department of Education is not surprised necessarily that it is taking this time, that it will just take effect. They basically are saying it's going to take time to really see the change.
And the Department of education and workforce is really interested in tracking the current kindergarten students. They were saying how by the time they get to third grade, they will be the first class essentially that will have have had only the science of reading.
And whereas the current students who did the test last year, have kind of, it's switched on them essentially, midway through and so the kindergarten class, they said it will be a really good, the current kindergartners will be a really kind of way to see the progress of the science of reading.
Juravich: It's the first year of fully implemented, yeah. Correct. Now, Ohio can require using the science of reading at its public schools, right? But do private schools and other types of schools, do they have to use it, or I guess now if 42 states are doing it, more and more are picking it up.
Henry: Yeah, I was trying to look into this yesterday. I'm not entirely sure if it's required for private schools. I think if it is not required, it's strongly encouraged.
Juravich: It's a suggestion. I mean, I'm not sure the state has much say over exactly that. Yeah. Okay. But it's being required in all of the public school districts, the ones that are overseen basically by the Ohio Department of Education workforce.
You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about teaching, reading, and the adoption of the science of reading curriculum with Ohio Capital Journal reporter Megan Henry. Governor DeWine has put some money behind this effort too. What did he put in place budget wise and did he put enough money into this?
Henry: Yeah, so when this took effect in 2023, through the state budget, it was a few different things. It was 86 million for educator professional development. So going back and basically making sure teachers have the right training to teach this correctly to students.
Also 64 million for curriculum and instructional materials. So the actual like textbooks, reading books that students will actually be using in the classrooms. And then 18 million for these literacy coaches, which are basically education professionals who work usually one-on-one or with small groups of students to really help improve their reading.
And so that was back in 2023, and this took effect the following year in 2024. And Neverdwine recently said that, you know, we're going to add more literacy coaches since there are so many districts in Ohio. So initially it was 100, we added 50 as well recently. So I think we're just seeing more and more of a need to add more resources to this.
Juravich: Okay, so he put in the money for the training, he put in money for new materials, and then he put in money these literacy coaches. But I have to say that this is about reading, but there's some math involved here. Because if he added 100 literacy coaches, and even if he just announced 50 more, there's 600 school districts in this state, correct? Yes. So 100 literacy coach is not enough.
Henry: That's right. I mean not even half. Yeah
Juravich: Yeah, I mean, that's not even one per school district. So what have schools been saying? Are they able to implement this? Do they have enough staff to change the way reading is taught? Do do they want to teach the science of reading, I guess?
Henry: Yeah, so before this law took effect, some school districts were already doing this. And so for some school district, they were able to kind of maintain status quo. Again, it was never really clear how many districts, what percentage of districts were already doing the science of reading.
So some didn't really have to change a ton or maybe had to do some tweaks. But other districts who were teaching a different way, maybe the three-queuing I was mentioning earlier with the guessing of sorts, then they have to totally revamp their reading and so I'm assuming that the literacy coaches are going more so to those districts who totally had to revamp.
Juravich: Change everything. Later in the show we're going to hear from a literacy specialist from Logan County and that school was a part of a science of reading pilot program so they even started it before the governor mandated it but the adoption of the science of reading curriculum it was not universally embraced right away. Do the concerns persist though? Do you think more people are understanding it now as we get the through the years here?
Henry: I think some people, like Governor Dwyer, were maybe a bit dismayed that there isn't this immediate change. That's why the Department of Education and Workforce is really stressing that it's just going to take time.
But hopefully, parents are seeing a difference, are able to see a difference in their students' reading, maybe, and starting to understand. And too, the teachers are starting to see a difference the way they teach and starting see students learn. Hopefully better under the science of reading is the hope.
Juravich: And "The 74" is a national nonprofit news organization that covers the America's education system. It takes its name from the 74 million children in American schools. So the Ohio Capital Journal recently published one of its stories, and the story quotes Chad Aldiss, who is with the Fordham Institute.
And the Fordam Institute advocates for the science of reading. And in it, Chad Aldis said, we haven't seen much progress yet. And that's disappointing. So is he referring to the fact that reading scores went down last year?
Henry: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, the, um, the ring scores went down. Um, which, yeah, is, was kind of, uh, it did kind of raise some eyebrows. Um. But after taking some, doing some digging with the Department of Education and workforce, we're able to be like, okay, this, understand the context around this a little bit more and that it, it really does seem like it'll just take time.
Juravich: And the Fordham Institute conducted its own survey. It surveyed more than 1,000 K through three teachers. And it found that teachers' knowledge of the science reading is improving. But the Fordam Institute said that an urgent need for continued progress remains. So can you talk more about, like, what is their position? What is their point here? That if they did this survey and they found that some teachers didn't have enough, like it's improving, but that doesn't mean they all have all the knowledge, right?
Henry: Yeah, well, it's hard. It kind of goes back to what they were taught at the collegiate level. You know, maybe they were a different way and now, you know, they've been, they've had a teacher for decades and now they're having to essentially relearn how they are teaching students how to read. So I think, uh, they'll just take time for people to kind of get on board or understand kind of the reasoning for, for why, why all these changes are being
Juravich: And coming up, we're gonna talk about how colleges are having to change the way they teach future teachers. But from your reporting that you've done on this, the Ohio Department of Education and Workforce is not only monitoring the progress in Ohio's 600 school districts, but then they also have to kind of monitor the progress of teaching future teachers, right?
Henry: Yes, so the Department of Higher Education. Oh, a different department, yes, okay. A different department. That makes sense, okay, yes. They are in charge of the higher ed aspect of this law and so they are now required to do an audit, essentially looking at the curriculum for education departments.
And basically in December when this audit was, the first audit was released, 10 colleges were found to, quote, not be in alignment with the science of reading. They are... Bowling Green State University, Central State University, Cleveland State University, Defiance College, Ohio Christian University, Ohio Dominican University, Ohio University, Ohio State University which had the most issues was 17, University of Toledo, and Wright State University were quote not in alignment, which
Juravich: I mean that's a lot that you're listing. Yeah. Yeah, and some big ones. Yeah
Henry: So they are now tasked with making sure their curriculum is in alignment. However, the, the audits with good reason were very nitpicky. And so if, if there was a mention of a former approach to teaching students how to read, they were, they are automatically like dinged because of that. And so that sounds alarming. Um, and it, you know, it, it can be, but it does seem like they were maybe just minor, minor things, not a major overhaul.
Juravich: Okay, so from your reporting, where do we go from here? I mean, obviously we have to wait for this year's reading scores and we have have to have some hope that they went up. Is that what everyone's hoping for?
Henry: Essentially, yeah. I think, yeah, hoping that the reading scores will go up little by little. I think seeing the next audit for the higher ed aspect, and they have to be in alignment essentially later this year, or the consequence would be that they would lose their accreditation. So that'd be very serious. And so seeing the higher-ed changes coupled with, over time, increasing reading scores are the hope.
Juravich: And do you have any insight into the fact that this is Governor DeWine's last year in office? This was kind of his, I mean, he pushed this. He wanted it to happen. Will everything continue no matter who the next governor is?
Henry: That is a good question. I like to think so, just because there are so many other states, most states, almost all states have something like this in effect. Not all states are doing necessarily the exact same thing, like Ohio is unique in the fact that they have this higher component as well and so maybe whoever becomes the next governor could they could make tweaks they could definitely make tweaks to how the law is in effect. But I do think overall the science of reading curriculum I would be very surprised if that were that were stripped from from the law.
Juravich: And so you're saying that not every other state is monitoring the higher education the way we are
Henry: Correct, yeah. Governor DeWine likes to tout how we are very unique in that, in that aspect.
Juravich: Well, we've been talking with Megan Henry, a reporter with the Ohio Capital Journal, who's been covering the state's switch to the science of reading. Thank you for your time today, Megan. Thank you. And coming up, we're going to talk to an Ohio State professor about working to get in alignment with the science reading and the logistics of making a wholesale curriculum change and preparing new teachers to teach it. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Educators will tell you, reading is not just another subject in school. It's the foundation of every subject.
So knowing that, many are watching what happens with reading and literacy rates as the states, including Ohio, mandate the phonics-driven science of reading. Governor DeWine pushed for the change in 2023, dismayed in the persistent drop in reading scores, and told universities to get on board or else. Not all are fully in alignment, according to the Ohio Department of Higher Education.
And that includes the state's largest university, Ohio State University. Joining us now is Maura Konrad, Associate Professor of Special Education at Ohio State University. Welcome to the show, professor. Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
So I mentioned just then that Ohio State is one of 10 colleges and universities listed as not in alignment with the science of reading mandate. That's according to Ohio's Department of Higher Education who's overseeing this. So help us understand from your perspective, what does being in alignment versus being out of alignment mean?
Moira Konrad: That's a great question. So there were two sort of prongs to this audit. One is nine domains of science of reading that covered 73 metrics. And those are things like phonological awareness and comprehension, are we using the science of reading to train teachers to teach kids to read?
So that was the first layer. And Ohio State met all 73 of those metrics. So, we are really proud of that.
The other piece of it was ensuring that we were not including prohibited content. And Megan talked about an example of that was the three-queuing method. And there were some instances when they did the audit of evidence that there were lingering references to three-queuing in some of our instructional materials. So that is why we were found out of compliance.
Juravich: So you were out of alignment because somewhere, somewhere along the way, maybe a teacher who's been with you for a long time was still mentioning an older way of teaching. That's correct.
Konrad: That's correct. So think about, you mentioned Ohio State is so huge, right? So we have five campuses. We have multiple sections. I think 40 different sections were audited, multiple instructors across multiple departments and schools. Um, and this audit, I don't know how much you know about how extensive it was.
It wasn't like a typical kind of accreditation visit where you send in your syllabi and you send it in your spreadsheet crosswalk that shows how you're meeting all of the different metrics. Is sort of a typical audit. This audit went way beyond that.
So in addition to all of that, we also had extensive interviews with the audit team, and they actually came to watch us teach. So for example, one of my courses was observed by two people, so they came and watched me teach for three hours.
Juravich: So someone from the state.
Konrad: Someone hired by the audit. So the audit was overseen by ODHE, the Department of Higher Education, but they consulted or hired a consulting firm out of University of Texas, Austin.
Juravich: Oh, I see. Okay. So they so the Ohio Higher Education Department maybe didn't have like they wanted to do this audit, but then they had to like hire a contract.
Konrad: Correct. So they audited every single university and every single section. Anybody who was teaching any of these courses during the time of the audit was observed and interviewed. So I participated in three hours of observation and three hours interviewing. Okay. This seems like a lot.
Juravich: This seems like a lot. Yeah, this is a lot so Megan Henry the reporter we just had she said that Governor DeWine is very proud of the fact that he is doing this and trying to get all of the schools on board to teach future teachers in the science of reading and she mentioned that not every other school district is doing it so or every other state rather so other states she said there are 42 states that are embracing the science reading and so if all those states are mandating it but maybe they're not following the colleges and universities so That's interesting. Why do you think Governor DeWine wants to make sure future teachers are teaching this way? Do you know? Do you have a what would be your your thoughts? Well,
Konrad: We want all kids to read, right? And we all have the same goal. And I would say that not everybody is coming along at the same pace, but we all have the goal, right, to get every kid to read. And our goal at the university is to make sure that teachers are prepared to do that.
Schools are adopting these curricula and for many teachers it's different from how they've taught. For pre-service teachers who've never taught, they are going to go into schools and have to teach these with these curricul.
If they haven't been trained properly to understand why does this work or to understand what do I do if it's not working? Then they're not prepared to implement those curricula. And then you're back to where you started, right? Having to train the teachers on the ground and we waste time that way. So I think preparing teachers before they get in is the most efficient way to do it.
Juravich: So talk to me about turning your reading curriculum around. How was it for Ohio State, who had been teaching future teachers, to go to this phonics-specific science of reading curriculum? What did that involve for you? And what were your department's thoughts whenever you found out from the governor, this is how you need to be teaching future features?
Konrad: Yeah, so I think there was a mixed bag in terms of our reaction, right? Some of us were really excited about it because as a special educator myself, we've been doing the science of reading for decades and it's been sort of seen, I think, there's been a misunderstanding that these methods, because they work for kids with dyslexia or other reading challenges, that that's who these curricula are for.
And I think becoming a little clearer on the science now that these methods actually work for virtually all kids. And one of the things I'm really excited about in terms of an expected outcome of this is that when all kids are getting evidence-based, science-based reading instruction, when kids do start to struggle, we'll have a better sense of what's going on.
Right now, we have to sort of lose time evaluating was it because they didn't get good instruction. Or is it because they have some other issues going on? So I think it's a win-win because in general education, everybody's gonna be a stronger reader, but in special education, we'll also be able to more quickly identify what the challenges are and how to remediate or intensify instruction to help kids with disabilities as well.
Juravich: Yeah, I guess that's important to point out, the science of reading didn't just pop up out of nowhere. I mean, it was being used, especially parents who have kids with dyslexia have been advocating for it for a long time. Is that correct? That is correct. Yeah.
Konrad: And a lot of the research has been done with kids who have reading disabilities, right? But the science of reading is not new. I would say some of the, probably the earliest study that I know of in terms of a big experiment was done as, it's called Project Follow Through. And it was done in the 60s and 70s as part of the war on poverty.
And there was something like, I think, 80,000 children included in this. Explicit systematic instruction came out on top back in the 70s, and those findings were swept under the rug. You've probably never heard of it. Most people have never heard it.
And so we do have these kind of pendulums that swing, and then of course it came up again with reading first, and now it's back again with science of reading. So we are using different terminology to describe this type of instruction.
But at Ohio State... I do want to be clear that we were heading in this direction already, right? We were moving toward embracing the science of reading. And I think what the audit really helped us do was, or the mandate, right, to speed up the trajectory. We're getting there. We're going to get there faster now, and also sort of formalizing our commitment to the science.
Juravich: Was Ohio State teaching a different type of reading curriculum, maybe called something else, but it wasn't called the science of reading?
Konrad: Ohio State doesn't endorse a specific type of curriculum, but in the intro to phonics courses, students were learning about systematic, explicit phonics instruction. I think our biggest challenge, and again, I'll go back to the size of our university and how complex it is, the audit treated us as one institution, but five campuses is.
You know, 40 plus sections of the courses, multiple instructors, that again, they're literally going down to the PowerPoint presentations, the articles that you're reading in the classes, an observation within a classroom. And so these instances of being- So if-
Juravich: one teacher on one campus was using a powerpoint that he or she had used for the past five years.
Konrad: And it could have been just one slide in some cases.
Juravich: In some cases. I see. So, okay. So tell me, okay, so you got, as you called it, you got dinged on the audit and you were found to be out of alignment. When is your next audit? When do you get to try again? When we can, you know, what do we do next?
Konrad: So there's a few different layers to it. In terms of the mandatory recommendation, that is to remove all of that reference to 3Qing, we've already done that. That was sort of the first check. Now, it still has to go through the audit team again for them to verify. But we've done that first layer.
The next layer is the recommended. They're not mandatory, but we have decided as a college that we are going to implement all of the recommendations, even if they weren't mandated. So that's what we're working on now and through the summer to basically get all of our instructional materials and course sections in alignment with those.
And then there's two other pieces, well, three other pieces to it, which is an annual assessment plan, and that is every year. We will come together and ensure that we are continuing to have fidelity to the science and that we're continuing across, again, across campuses, across sections, all of that, that we were doing that.
And a professional development plan, so any instructor who's teaching any of these courses has to do extensive initial professional development and annual ongoing professional development. Third area, which isn't a mandate, but sort of internally, what we've needed to do is to develop some systems to kind of keep track of all of this, right?
So we're gonna develop a common repository where all materials are gonna be housed here so that people aren't deviating from those. And obviously, people can add their own creativity and flair and that kind of thing. Personality, we're not trying to take that out of instruction, but we do wanna make sure that the basics are there. Sort of develop some systems for all of that as well.
Juravich: You're going to check on all those slides, aren't you? I am. I'm going to go through it with a fine-tooth comb.
You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News, and we're talking about the science of reading curriculum with Professor Moira Konrad from Ohio State University. An elementary school principal in another county told us that while looking to hire a fourth grade teacher, it wasn't a deciding factor.
But he first looked at colleges that were in alignment with the science of reading when looking at who, like hiring a brand new. Just out of college teacher. So do you see that, do you think Ohio State grads are gonna miss out on a hiring opportunity since there was all this news coverage of Ohio State being out of alignment?
Konrad: I can understand why a principal would feel that way. I have not seen any firsthand evidence that's hurt our graduates in any way. We are fully committed to being in alignment moving forward, and so hopefully that won't have an impact on our graduates. I can speak just anecdotally from the program that I work in. We have a primary dual licensure program, which... Part special ed and part general ed. And our first cohort just graduated and they all got jobs. So there's that.
Juravich: Yeah. So even though you were deemed out of alignment, everyone has a job right now, right? At least in that program. At least not program. Okay. So the but the idea of, you know, implementing the science of reading curriculum, like, how long is it going to be before we see definitive results to show that the science of reading is working and it's improving reading and literacy?
Konrad: So it depends, I suppose, on what you're using as your measure. If you're looking at these more global measures, like the Nations Report Card or NAEP that Megan was talking about, or even the state tests, it's going to be a while. It's going be a few years.
If you think about phonics as sort of the foundation, these tests don't measure phonics, right? These tests are comprehension tests, right, our kids reading and comprehending what they're reading. So it takes a few year, right to get those foundational skills. And then you'll start to see it on these more, comprehension is an outcome that you get from good reading instruction.
Juravich: Is it a good idea to have everyone kind of speaking and teaching in the same language using all the same tools, you know, from teaching future teachers to classroom teachers and the way classroom teachers are teaching students? I mean, is it, I can see how it's good to have everyone using the same terms, right?
Konrad: Yeah, absolutely. So think about any profession, right? We have a common language. Think about doctors and physical therapists and speech language pathologists. They're using a common language to talk about their profession, right? And so, you know, teachers are professionals and we want them to be treated as professionals.
And so having a common language and a common kind of approach. And again, it doesn't mean that one size fits all and that everybody's doing the exact same thing. But it does mean that we have a systematic way of approaching it. And some of that's about how we progress monitor. Are we using valid and reliable tools?
So again, when kids aren't responding, are we going to use the data to make informed decisions? And I think having a language around that that is common across the state, across the country, but also across different disciplines, I think, so in my case, I think coming from a special ed background, Sometimes we have a disconnect in language. When we're trying to collaborate with our peers in general education. So kind of developing that common language, I think definitely will help elevate the profession and help, again, kind of be more efficient in terms of figuring out what we need to do next.
Juravich: What do you want people to know whenever they hear a news story that says something like, you know, the state announces 10 colleges and universities are out of alignment for the science of reading, you know? Like, you know. And the headline makes it seem like big trouble. What do want people know about your program and what you're doing?
Konrad: Ohio State is taking full ownership of this. We are fully committed to being in alignment and to staying in alignment. That's the other piece is this needs to endure over time and it will be, there'll be ups and downs, there will be bumps in the road, but we need to keep working toward getting every child to read. And I think, regardless of... Where we've been or where any individual instructor has been, we have always all had the same goal, which is to teach kids to read.
Juravich: And with the next, you can talk to the consultants. You can do your next audit or whatever comes next. Do you feel confident that you'll pass in the next time around now that you know what to look out for?
Konrad: I do feel confident the leadership team that's been working on this has been very thorough, very extensive in terms of providing professional development, even professional development that has not been required, but just to kind of help everybody kind of get on the same page. So yeah, I do. Feel confident that we will be found to be in alignment and the next time around.
Juravich: Do you find that this was, I want to say more intense than maybe leaders in your department thought it was going to be or something like that? Like whenever it was announced that you were out of alignment, were you surprised? Like, you know, did you realize that you were going to like, I don't know, not pass the test?
Konrad: I think we were a little bit surprised because of how much we put into preparing for it. But then when we looked at the reasons why, it was not that heavy of a lift to kind of
Juravich: You're like, we can fix this.
Konrad: Yeah, we can fix this, you know, a lot of it. There were 17 instances of out-of-alignment examples, but there were only really eight issues of just 17 because of how many sections of the courses we had. Okay. So yeah, we fixed that. We're good. Check.
Juravich: Alright, we fixed that. Well, we've been talking about the science of reading curriculum with Professor Moira Konrad from Ohio State University. I want to thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much. And coming up, we're going to talk with a literacy specialist who's been working with the science of reading since 2017. And we're gonna hear how students in her school are doing. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. We're talking this hour about reading and about the state's pivot to teaching it using the science of reading and what parents can do at home this summer to promote literacy.
One school district in Logan County embraced elements of the science reading curriculum years before Governor Mike DeWine mandated it. Riverside Elementary School in De Graff, Ohio, which is about an hour northwest of Columbus, was a part of a pilot program that started in 2016. And Margo Shipp is a literacy specialist for Riverside Elementary, where she's worked for nine years.
Before that, she worked on one of Ohio's regional state support teams. Welcome to All Sides, Margo.
Margo Shipp: Thank you, Amy, it's good to be here.
Juravich: So you're a literacy specialist, which means you're not a classroom teacher, but you're teaching reading, basically. Tell me what your role is. What does a literacy specialists do?
Shipp: Well, basically, I'm here to support the teachers in their instructional methods, making sure that they have what they need to instruct our students in reading, as well as I do some interventions with students as well, third grade through sixth grade, try to get them, if they're struggling, try to them up where they need to be.
Juravich: And I keep interchanging the word reading and literacy. Can you tell me what is the difference between reading and literally? Am I using the words incorrectly?
Shipp: Well, literacy is the overarching umbrella. Reading would be part of literacy. Reading, writing, speaking, and listening are what we consider to be literacy.
Juravich: Okay. Okay. So reading is under literacy. I got it. Correct. Um, so how was Riverside selected to be one of the early adopters of what's called the science of reading curriculum? I mean, this was years before Governor DeWine made it a statewide mandate. So how did Riverside get on board here?
Shipp: Well, at the time, while there still are 16 state support teams in Ohio, and each state support team was asked to choose a district that was ready to implement some changes in their literacy instruction.
And at the same time, I worked for State Support Team 6 at Wapakoneta, and we looked at Riverside, what they already had in place. They had a good, really strong administrative team. Their teachers were doing the Ohio Improvement Process, which is something, of course, that come out of the state as well. And they were just primed to be ready to try something different.
Juravich: So at the time, whenever you adopted this pilot program, 25% of students passed the third grade reading test in the fall. I mean, and that seems pretty low. Why so low? Only 25%.
Shipp: Um, I just, to me, what they were, they did not have the instruction that they needed. They were using kind of outdated or not really outdated, I shouldn't say it because some teachers are still using it, um, methods that were not proven for students to learn how to read. So, um. They just were not making the gains.
I will tell you that that year before I came on here. They had just started a new reading program. So they did change their reading program right before I came to the district. So that was a plus. There are other stuff, I don't think they'd had one in like 15 years, a new Reading program. So, you know, when you do that, you kind of lose some of the positives that a newer program would give you.
Juravich: So by 2019 though, students hit a 91% passage rate of that third grade test. So that's an amazing improvement. I mean, that's a quick turnaround, right? That's, yeah, you're proud of that.
Shipp: I'm very proud of that. I would love to say we've replicated that. We haven't. It's been up and down like a roller coaster. You had COVID.
Juravich: There. Okay, yeah. Oh, yeah, because this is you had not you were at 91% in 2019. Oh yeah.
Shipp: Yeah. So then we hit COVID and it just, you know, all those factors combined, we went back down. We've come back up, not to 91. We would love to see that again. But we're still striving to get there.
Juravich: So 91% will be your high watermark, I guess. Yes, but you fully implemented the Science of Reading curriculum and you started in this pilot program in 2016. What was it like for teacher buy-in, training, support? I mean, tell me about the implementation.
Shipp: Well, what was really nice is that the administration here really was already had already bought into it. They were ready to go. They wanted to give our teachers this new material to help them become better instructors. So that really was one of the biggest pieces of it. Of course, the state provided all the training.
We did it together as a team, the whole building did. So everyone had time to. Discuss and to share and then to go in and implement it in the classroom. So it was everyone was together. It wasn't like everybody went off and did it on their own. We did it together so and you know there were a couple snacks here and there every once in a while and there were people asking questions which was one of the biggest pluses.
You know, why are we doing it this way when we've always done it this way? So that was something that was we had the time built into the to the school year for two years. For us to do this training. And what the administration also did is they took everything else off the teacher's plates as far as training. This was the training.
Juravich: Okay, like no, no professional development in, you know, in other areas we're going to focus in on the reading, okay.
Shipp: Absolutely. So it was a priority for the district.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News, and we're talking about the science of reading with Riverside Elementary School literacy specialist, Margo Shipp. So was there any teacher resistance? I mean, the teacher sat in these professional developments. I'm sure you had some teachers who had been teaching for 20 plus years one way. Did they understand the change?
Shipp: I don't think there was a few at first that didn't and I have an actual story of a sixth grade teacher because we did it all the way from pre K to six and a sixth grade teacher who did not see how any of this you know early literacy pertained to her students because they were in sixth grade right so they didn't need some of this early literacy information until we got through the first year and then she started seeing how it made sense.
Especially looking at students who struggle, students who are not meeting the benchmark, who were not able to read at grade level, that this was the information that would help them reach that. And she actually called me to her room and apologized for not, I thought she was gonna let me have it. And instead she said, I am so sorry. Now I see how valuable this is for our students and I get it, but it took a year.
Yeah. Yeah, that was, yeah, it was literally brought to, it still brings tears to my eyes because it was that realization that, you know what? There is something out there that works for all kids, not just some, but for all.
Juravich: So what did you think when you heard a few years ago, Governor DeWine make a speech and say, all 600 school districts in the state of Ohio will adopt the science of reading? What were your thoughts on that?
Shipp: I was thrilled. Yeah. I was like, Yes, it is about time. You know, when I taught in the classroom, we didn't, I didn't have these tools, because I've been out of the classroom for quite a few years and you know, the way I used to teach, I feel bad that my students didn't get the benefit of my knowledge I have now. We did the best we could with what we knew at the time.
But in the past, you know, 10. Or more years, the information that we've received, the science that has gone into looking at how students learn to read, it has changed everything. And I look at it now, I was kind of the one who was sitting there going, oh, this training's ridiculous, I don't need this, to the person who's going, oh my gosh, this is the best thing I have ever seen.
Juravich: Well, and so Governor DeWine is doing something that not a lot of other states are doing, and he's leaning hard on colleges and universities to change the way they teach future teachers. And he's auditing them, and he wants to make sure that they're teaching future teachers correctly in the science of reading. And we were just talking about how 10 universities in the state did not pass the audit, right? Because they didn't move quick enough, I guess, is what I'm gathering here. What do you think of that, of Governor DeWine leaning on these training colleges as well?
Shipp: Absolutely a must. I'm so glad he's doing that because that's where it starts. If they don't get that training in college and they come into a district like Riverside who's been doing this for years, we have to go back and train them. We shouldn't have to do that. It should be something they're coming out of their college years being able to implement immediately.
And actually we have a new fourth grade teacher coming on and she is went to one of the universities that has been. You know rated by the state is one of the highest ones and so we feel very confident with her coming in that she understands the science of reading and so that that has helped us as a district to look at new perspective.
We can see where they went to college. We can tell that's a good college. We don't have to worry about her as much as we would somebody who comes out of a college that has not been put on that top list.
Juravich: And I know you can't speak for all 600 school districts in the state, you can only speak to your school district, but do you feel like all the school districts have the supports and the ability like you did to be able to implement this? Do you think that they all are taking the time to do the proper professional development and truly like lead into the science of reading? In a perfect.
Shipp: World. Yes, it's all going that way, but I have a feeling that it's not. I think the state is offering a lot of supports if districts take them up on it. And, you know, that's That's per district. How are you going to do it? Clientele is different for every district. Where are the students coming from? You know, what is the town, their city? What is it like? How are students coming in? Are they prepared for school? There's so many variables.
But if you take the science of reading and implement it, you are taking a big variable out of it. You're taking teacher knowledge, and you are implementing that in your school. And students are then able to learn to read. If you're just fly by night doing what you've always done, you're gonna get the same results you've got. So to me, I am all on board for what the state has done.
Juravich: Well, we only have two minutes left, but while I have a literacy specialist with me, I have to ask for any parents that are listening right now. We're heading into summer and during the summer, that's whenever you hear about the summer slide and a lot of gains that were learned, some of them can be lost. So classroom instruction does not need to stop, but teachers hope learning will not end. What can parents do in the summer to make sure that their kids are excited about reading and keep reading and maybe read properly?
Shipp: The first thing I would say is it's not just about reading, it's also about talking with your child, not talking at your child but having conversations with your child. Not just reading books but reading magazines if they're interested in it, finding something that they have an interest in and using that to get them hooked on reading a book or reading a newspaper or reading magazine, highlights, Ranger Rick, something that they don't, you know, a book sometimes intimidates kids.
Because it's a lot of especially if you get into the upper grades where they're reading chapter books Maybe they don't want to read a whole chapter book. Well, then just get something that they will read And again the whole the whole thing beats up behind oral language, which is the cornerstone of literacy if you can get talk to your child have conversations put the cell phones and Computers, you know games and everything away and just have a conversation with them You will be amazed at what they are able to do once they start to talk with you and not be talked at.
Juravich: Okay. All right. So conversations. Yes. Look for summer reading programs at your library. I also had I had to mention that Pizza Hut relaunched its book it program from whenever that's from when I was a kid. It says devour books, devour some pizza. So lots of different ways to get them engaged. We've been talking about the science of reading with Riverside Elementary School literacy specialist, Margo Shipp. Thank you so much for your time today, Margo. Thank you, Amy.
You've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. If you missed any part of today's show, listen back at www.wosu.org slash all sides. Subscribe to our podcast. Every episode is available in our mobile app. This is 89.7 WOSU NPR News.