Across the country and here in Central Ohio, work is changing fast; creating new opportunities and real questions for workers, families, and employers navigating a complex moment.
Artificial intelligence is transforming jobs across every industry. The immigrant workforce is becoming a vital part of our economy. And many people are reconsidering whether college is the only path to a stable, meaningful career.
In this first episode of Untangled: Reshaping Work, we will get an overview of the current state of jobs, workers, and businesses around the state and in central Ohio.
This season of Untangled is a part of the WOSU Public Media project – Inside: Reshaping Work.
Guests:
- Steve Stivers, president and CEO, Ohio Chamber of Commerce
- Derrick Clay, president and CEO, Columbus Chamber of Commerce
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to "Untangled" from All Sides and WOSU public media. I'm your host Amy Juravich. Across the country and here in central Ohio, work is changing fast. Creating new opportunities and real questions for workers, families, and employers navigating a complex moment.
This is a new season of "Untangled". And this is a show where we take a complicated topic and untangle it for you. We explain it in a way that makes it easier to understand. This season, we are tackling work. Thank you.
Businesses are dealing with a lot of change and challenges too, from artificial intelligence transforming jobs across every industry, to the immigrant workforce becoming a vital part of our economy, to decisions about how to plan for the workers of tomorrow and whether or not those plans involve a four-year degree. Joining us to talk about the future of work for businesses in Columbus and around the state. We have with us Derek Clay, the president and CEO of the Columbus Chamber of Commerce. Welcome to the show, Derek.
Derrick Clay: Amy, thank you for having me.
Juravich: And then we also have with us in the studio, Steve Stivers, the president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce. Welcome to the show, Steve.
Steve Stivers: Thank you. It's great to be on with you and air.
Juravich: So I'm gonna ask both of you for your take on how businesses are doing right now during this time of change. So Derek, let's start with you. Are you hearing excitement, confusion? What are you hearing from Columbus businesses about 2026 and beyond?
Clay: But what I can tell you, Amy, is that Columbus is at a real turning point right now. We're seeing rapid growth in investment that's reshaping the region. And of course, businesses are wondering, you know, what is the future of our workforce?
They're paying attention to things that are happening federally and at the state level, and quite honestly at the local level as to how it affects their business. And, you know the choices that we make right now will impact our economy for years to come. And that just didn't happen by accident. That that's a result of a long-term collaboration between business government and community leaders.
Juravich: Steve, what about you for the whole state? Are we hearing excitement, confusion? What emotion would you give the state's business climate right now?
Stivers: The answer is yes. We're hearing excitement about the future. There's huge opportunities right now with artificial and augmented intelligence to make every worker so much more productive. There's confusion because a lot of companies don't know exactly how that, especially medium and small companies, don't how that fits in their strategy yet.
And I think there's a lot change going on. There are demographic changes coming at us. There are changes with who works. How we work, where we work what we do, and for whom we work. All of those things we can dig into a little more. Just a few changes. But there are a lot of changes going on right now.
And like I agree with Derek there's a ton of opportunity right now and what we do right now between states that act right now, and states that don't are going to determine who the winners are and who the losers are. And we've got some work ahead of us. We're lucky to have some really forward-leading business leaders and some forward-leaning policymakers that I think are going to help make Ohio more competitive.
Juravich: Now, Steve, there was a report from the State Department of Development from 2023, and it said Ohio was the seventh most populous state, but it warned that Georgia and North Carolina could beat us out by 2030. So talk to me about what's being done to reverse this. Should I call it a population loss or is it a lack of consistent growth?
Stivers: It's a lack of consistent growth. So Ohio, in the last 10 years, grew by 5 tenths of 1%. The average state grew by 1.2%. And the fastest growing states grew by 3% to 4%. So we are growing, but we're not growing fast enough.
And while I think that is important, I also think with all the changes going on, we can have the opportunity. To have every worker be so much more productive. And I think while we do want to grow our population, that will not necessarily determine who wins and who loses. It will be the readiness of each worker for things like AI fluency and making sure that they're entrepreneurial and making sure they're task-oriented and not time-oriented. I think a lot of those things will really determine who wins and loses in the future.
Juravich: And Derek, I mean, the state might not be growing as rapidly as other states in the country, but Columbus certainly is growing rapidly. What does it mean for Columbus to be growing so fast? I mean is it almost too fast that Columbus is growing?
Clay: Well, I think Columbus growing at the rapid rate that is growing is because there is a great sense of collaboration here. When you think about the Columbus right now or Ohio being the number one state in the Midwest and, you know, Columbus is projected to see an unemployment growth of 0.7% this year alone, it shows you that, you know, our community leaders, our elected leaders and our business leaders are all line.
And how we approach this. And Columbus is the economic engine of the state. And because geographically Columbus is, or not Columbus, but Ohio is a smaller geographic state than some of our neighbors. The mere fact that Columbus is being such an economic powerhouse right now, it can impact the other cities around us in a positive way.
Juravich: Yeah, and then Steve, back to you about that Department of Development report. I know you wrote about that report, and you said it relied too heavily on... Yeah, they were wrong, by the way. Well, you said, it relied to heavily on birth and death records. It didn't take job growth into consideration. Correct. So that being said, so where are we growing the jobs?
Stivers: Is it all in Columbus? Central Ohio and the Cincinnati region are the two fastest growing parts of the state. Columbus is the fastest growing city north of the Mason-Dixon, one of the fastest-growing cities in the country. Cincinnati is consistently growing. The Cincinnati region, MSA, is consistently going and the most diversified economy in the region, in the state, where we've lagged is the northern tier.
And the good news is they've really turned it around. So. They've stopped the population decline and now slowly started growing. And I feel like there's some real opportunities to continue that movement with some trends that are going on of reshoring and nearshoring manufacturing. That's going to be a big deal straight down the 71 corridor and right across the I-90 corridor.
And all the opportunities around Lake Erie, especially in Cleveland, with the Brown Stadium moving, is going to create a real opportunity. To take advantage of Lake Erie in a way that Cleveland hasn't in the past. When you look at Chicago or even smaller cities like Milwaukee or Buffalo that are on the Great Lakes, they have really leveraged the Great Lakes to make themselves a cool destination.
And Cleveland has not historically done that. But I think that Mayor Bibb and others in Cleveland are embracing that. And I think there's a real opportunity. And I agree with Derek. Columbus is the growth engine for Ohio right now, but what we wanna be careful of is not to become like Indiana where the rest of the state is hollowed out to make Indianapolis bigger. We wanna make sure that growth comes from everywhere, not just the other parts of Ohio.
Juravich: In doing a show about reshaping work and job growth, I didn't expect the Browns to come up. That's it. So tell me a little bit more about that. So you're seeing this development, if it happens and however it happens, as being like a big job boom, not just the construction though.
Stivers: No, I think it's about making Cleveland cool so that people want to live there and creating an opportunity to have a space right on Lake Erie where you can not only do recreation, you can dine, you can shop, you stay, you create economic value. It's about creating this commercial zone and recreation zone right on lake Erie the that nobody in Ohio really has done, although Sandusky's probably done the best.
If you do that right in downtown Cleveland, it's a huge opportunity and anybody that's been to Chicago and Lake Michigan knows exactly what they've done with both parks and then the opportunity to stay and shop and dine right there along Lake Michigan. It's a real opportunity for Cleveland to, you know, then I think people will want to move there.
The other thing that's going on in the change of work is. People choose where they want to live first, and then they work there. That's something that I think the city of Columbus understands, Cincinnati understands. We need our folks in the northern tier to understand, you've got to have the amenities and the quality of life, and then people will choose to live there, and they'll work where they live. They won't live where they work. That is another trend that's going on across the United States and around the world.
Juravich: Yeah, Derek, are you are you seeing more people moving to Columbus from other states or from other parts of Ohio?
Clay: I think both, Amy, we're getting traction with job growth and people relocating from other states because a number of our businesses here are growing, and so they're bringing more people into the region. And I think that folks are capitalizing on the economic growth that Columbus has experienced over the past couple decades, and they want to be a part of it.
I mean, uh... You know, Steve mentioned Indianapolis, and that's a perfect example of how the city has kind of absorbed everyone from other parts of that state. And Indianapolis has benefited from it, but the rest of Indiana hasn't. I don't see that as much for Ohio, just because we are smaller geographically.
I do think that the more success that Columbus has, the better opportunities for our neighboring cities around the state. Because if you have Columbus as the nucleus and you have a Dayton that's maybe an hour, hour and a half away from us, Columbus or Toledo two hours away from us, Cleveland two hours from us then we can benefit from that workforce. You know, if a company decides to relocate in Youngstown per se. Then Western Pennsylvania is going to benefit from that. If a company goes to Toledo, great for Toledo but Southeast Michigan is going to benefit benefit from as well. So I think that the more concentration that we can put on the center of the state we can draw the workforce from the other areas and we can also be a benefit to those cities as well.
Stivers: And I totally agree with Derek. I want to take it to the next level and say, it's not just the workforce, but the supply chains. And we've watched Andoril locate in Columbus. You'll see supply chain near Dayton, up and down 71, up and 75 throughout the whole state. Same thing with Intel. They're building a lot of supply chain companies in central Ohio, but you're seeing some in Cleveland, some in Cincinnati, some in Dayton, some in Toledo.
So. The supply chains of these companies that are headquartered and moving to Columbus can be all around the state within an hour or two of us. And the beauty that Derek just alluded to is no matter what direction you go, two hours, you're still in Ohio. So that supply chain is helping build the Ohio economy, no matter where it is. And Columbus can be the driver of that. And I think that's the advantage that Columbus can help give the rest of the state to point.
Juravich: This is Untangled from All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. This show is a part of the WOSU public media project Inside Reshaping Work. We're talking with Steve Stivers, president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce, and Derek Clay, president and CEO of the Columbus Chamber of Commerce.
Derek, Columbus is working hard to attract businesses to the downtown area and all around Franklin County for that matter. But in recent years, that work has involved tax abatements. A report from the Franklin County Auditor from last year found that more than 15% of the properties in Franklin County have some sort of tax break associated with it. Do businesses tell you that these type of tax incentives are a must in order to grow here?
Clay: I think that the downtown and our region has benefited from these tax incentives because developers want to build downtown and it takes public-private partnerships to do that. I don't think that you will see as much growth in the downtown if we didn't have those incentives.
Now, what we have to do is make sure that the city and the county and these entities that are providing these tax incentives. Keep those. Developers keep those organizations accountable so that if they're not meeting their goals and their quota is that they are appropriately assessed for that. But I do think that overall the tax incentives has benefited the downtown corridor as well as the Columbus region.
Juravich: Well, Steve, similar question to you. Tax breaks have been used to attract big companies all around Ohio. You mentioned a couple of them there, Intel, Andrel. Does this continue to be a best practice? Because I feel like these tax abetments, they're facing more and more questioning right now, more scrutiny.
Stivers: They certainly are facing some questions, but they're working. And Jobs Ohio is one of our competitive advantages. I hear it from all 49 of my colleagues around the country. They're looking at Jobs Ohio and saying, how can we do that? And what we're doing is working. I agree with Derek. We've got to always assess and make sure that the outcomes are working.
But tax incentives are working, and we have some problems that we need to acknowledge. It is more expensive to operate downtown than it is in the suburbs. It's more expensive for the companies. It' s more expensive for the employees. We have to figure out how to make that work. Tax incentives is one way to do that. And let me note that if a company locates downtown, we as employees in the municipal tax system in Ohio, pay the tax where we work, not where we live.
So, downtown can be a big winner, two and a half percent. Of our salaries is the municipal tax load in Ohio, at least in Columbus, and a lot of surrounding communities. That's a lot money they can get. So there is a payoff to that, whether they want to acknowledge it or not. I do think that there's some things we've got to do to make downtown more competitive.
Everybody knows there's vacancies downtown, some vacant towers. I think there's some opportunities to really leverage those for AI. Working spaces and collaboration spaces with a hub and spoke opportunity, get some other investment. I think you'll see some new investment downtown here real soon. So I think there's some really exciting opportunities to leverage the assets that we have downtown to make Ohio a place and make Columbus a place that is a leader, especially an AI leader.
And the future of work is AI, as Derek alluded to. It's going to be, when we look at who works, there will be people that work, but there'll be AI agents that work. And every person will be more productive as a result of augmented intelligence, too. So if we can turn our organizations into AI native companies downtown and around the state, Ohio will absolutely be a winner.
There's some training and AI literacy work that needs to go on to do that. But I think that is really one of the really key things that our business leaders and our policymakers need to focus on AI adoption and AI readiness if Ohio is gonna win. That's probably, if I had to say one thing that's most important, that will separate the winners from the losers in the future.
Juravich: You've said time and time again, Steve, that Jobs Ohio sets Ohio apart in attracting these companies here, these economic development projects. Right now there's some lawmakers calling for more transparency with Jobs Ohio because they are private. They don't have to tell us how they do all the things that they do. What do you think about that? Is it better that Ohio has something that's all its own or should there be more transparency here? You could
Stivers: I think you can do both. And actually, I think it's been underrepresented, the transparency that exists. I would ask all your listeners to go to Jobs Ohio's website. There's a big red button on their website that is complete transparency. It happens after the deals.
But I will tell you, in the beginning stages of the deals, the fact that they're not subject to the public record laws is a competitive advantage for Ohio, because companies don't have to share things about what they're looking at. They can come here and start to move. But after every deal is done, there is complete transparency. They're audited by an independent audit firm. I think we need to probably get that information more available to the public.
But as I said, anybody that wants it can find it. There's a big red button on Jobs Ohio's website that I think a bunch of policymakers must have missed. But it's a red button, and I think they could find it if they just go to the website.
Juravich: All right, well, Derek, big red button aside, Jobs Ohio, I'm sure, has helped bring businesses to Columbus. What are your thoughts on the future of these tax abatements and if that's the way to go?
Clay: Absolutely. Before I answer that, Amy, I just want to say that I so appreciate Steve and his leadership at the Ohio Chamber. We work very well together, and I think that that has benefited our region as well. But to answer your question specifically. Intel, Andriel, none of these projects would have happened if Jobs Ohio was public.
And yes, we do need to have transparency. We do need have accountability and responsibility for those organizations. But companies of that size and magnitude, they don't necessarily want to disclose where they're even thinking about going until they're certain. And I went to Chandler, Arizona last year and toured the Intel plant. And the Intel Plant there is about 700 acres. Our footprint is about 1,000 acres.
And that plant in Chandler Arizona is massive. It's massive. And it has totally transformed that community. Chandler is the city that it is because of Intel. And I can tell you that there's all types of housing developments around there. There's all kinds of suppliers and other businesses that have popped up because of that. So I am in favor of transparency. I'm in favor making sure that we're keeping our government officials accountable and responsible to the public. But I do applaud the work that Jobs Ohio does to ensure that we are landing these major deals.
Juravich: Well, more details about Jobs Ohio transparency and the future of Intel is probably a completely different show. I'm not going to open that can of worms any more than we already have because we have lots of other things to talk about.
Stivers: Amy, I would like to say one more thing about where we work. I think this idea that office work is dead is a completely false narrative. And you're already seeing a lot of companies now come back to work. More days per week, because collaboration and culture and training matter. And you can't train people remotely very well. Culture deteriorates remotely.
And so I think this narrative about, you know, the future of work being either hybrid or work from home is a pretty false narrative. And I think next time we see an economic downturn, the other thing you'll see is disproportionate percentage of the people laid off. Will be the people who work remotely, because you don't have to look them in the face when you lay them off.
And I think that will start to reset the culture toward maybe not a five day a week office culture. And I the other thing that's happening is nine to five is not, it's gonna be more outcome based work, project based work not time based work. And offices will become collaboration centers, but offices are still gonna be a very important part. Of how we work. I just wanted to get that in there, because I kind of, as we think through who works, how we, work where we work, we've made it that far. And I wanted to at least make that plug for where we, I do think offices will continue to be very important.
Juravich: Well, coming up we're going to talk about what businesses here in Columbus and around the state are looking for in workers for today and the workers of tomorrow. That's when "Untangled" reshaping work from All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
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Amy Juravich: You're listening to "Untangled" from All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. "Untangled" is a show where we take a complicated topic and untangle it for you. Explain it in a way that makes it easier to understand. And this season, we're tackling work. The Columbus Chamber of Commerce partners with more than 2,600 businesses in the central Ohio region.
The Ohio Chamber of Commerce represents more than 8,000 members statewide. Both organizations work to champion economic competitiveness and growth. But what do those thousands of businesses in the, that the chambers represent need when it comes to workers? What are the jobs of today and tomorrow? And who are the workers to fill them? Still with us, we are talking about the future of employment needs with Steve Stivers, president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce. Thanks again for being here, Steve.
Stivers: Great to be here.
Juravich: And Derek Clay, president and CEO of the Columbus Chamber of Commerce. Thanks for being here, Derek.
Clay: Thank you, Amy.
Juravich: So Steve, I mentioned earlier WOSU is doing this station-wide project, it's called Reshaping Work. We went with that title, Reshaping Work, because the work is still there, right? But the jobs aren't going away, but some of them are starting to look different. And there's many reasons for that, but I wanted to start with the big reason, artificial intelligence. What are you hearing from businesses around Ohio about how AI is reshapin' work?
Stivers: So AI is fundamentally, think of it as the new automation. So since the 1950s, a lot of our manufacturers have continually been increasing their amount of automation of manual tasks, for example. So on a production line, there's a lot less people now than there were 50 years ago to make a product. We've moved that to the next level, And now we're talking about bass.
Computational tasks, things that a computer can do. It's not going to take away the important human skills of leadership, judgment, and relationships. But it will leverage every human to do more. And I think that will ultimately be good for Ohio and be good the states and workforces that become AI native and AI fluent. So We do need to make sure that we train people K through 12 and in higher education to be AI fluent.
We also, I think, need to anticipate some of the disruption that will happen. I think it's been a little overplayed, but I think there'll be jobs that are displaced as a result of artificial intelligence, and we just need to train those people to do the new things, That there still will be a lot of opportunities to work And all this comes at exactly the right time for a demographic trend that is facing us in about five years.
There's going to be a lot less 18-year-olds than there used to be because people started having less babies a few years ago. And so a lot of our colleges and universities are seeing that demographic trend. That also corresponds with a lot of retirements of baby boomers and even Gen Xers. So I think there's a huge transition in the workforce. But I think AI is going to play a very important role.
And the states that are ready and increase AI literacy will be big, big winners in the future economy. But that also means a couple other things for employees. It means more fractional work. So somebody that maybe, instead of having one job, they have six jobs where they're working for six different people. And they're an entrepreneur where they do their own billing. On some different tasks.
And I think there'll be more job sharing that also, I think, creates an opportunity for our folks that are retired that might not want to work 40 hours a week to come back and do some work to keep their mind sharp and make some money but not have to burden themselves with a 40-hour work. I think we'll see a movement away from a 40 hour work to more task-based work.
Juravich: Yeah, Derek, let's talk about the Columbus Chamber's perspective on AI. Are you hearing that businesses want to embrace it for particular reasons? You know, I'm thinking spreadsheets, making tasks that a human doesn't want to do or that a computer can do better. What are you hearing for the central Ohio region when it comes to embracing AI?
Clay: Yes, there's a thirst for learning how to use AI. We've partnered with Google to do just that. We've had some sessions called Grow with Google. And that's basically where they teach people the basics of how to used AI. And when you think about AI, AI creates efficiencies. So the question is, how do you manage the business of efficiency? So, I believe that... Yes, some jobs will be displaced, some jobs would be re-imagined, but how do you manage the business of efficiency and learn how to use AI in a way that it creates more opportunities for people?
Juravich: Steve, I interviewed the CEO of an Ohio-based startup, it's called Path Robotics, I'm not sure if you've heard of them.
Stivers: I know those guys really well, two brothers, yep.
Juravich: Yeah, they so they're developing AI robots to weld military ships because apparently we're very slow in this country at building at shipbuilding And we need more welders, but when he was on the show He talked about the robots doing parts of it, but then still needing people Um, and it was interesting to hear that there were plenty of room for people and plenty of rooms for AI Are you hearing that from other companies?
Stivers: 100%. That's exactly what's going on. It'll change how people work. It won't necessarily displace people. The other trend we're hearing is this rise of additional education that's not higher education, it's certifications at places like Columbus State. And a lot of our folks that are moving to much more high-tech workforces need workers with Notifications that might take six months.
They might take three months, they might take a year, and those folks are making average wages of, you know, $40 to $50 an hour, $100,000 a year with a six-month certificate. It's really a big deal, and we need to change our workforce readiness to be ready for a rise in, you know certification programs that are the programs that employers need. So we have to stay very flexible.
And be very connected with our job creators through our higher education, especially our community college system, like Columbus State. And I'll put in a plug for Columbus State, they've done a great job of being connected to central Ohio's employers and knowing what they need because they're talking to them every day. Dr. Harrison and his team are doing a great job of that. And I think that's, we'll see a ton of growth in those. Certification programs in the next five or ten years.
Juravich: Yeah, we're gonna talk with it. Yeah, well we're I'm gonna talk With the talent strategy director for Columbus State Community College next week on this show So we'll get into more detail about how he's doing the training and who who are the people he's training next week But go ahead Derek you can jump in
Clay: Yeah, there's no question that Columbus State is doing a tremendous job with preparing our workforce for what's to come with AI as well as the Ohio State University. But I would stress that we have to make sure that we are preparing our young people for these opportunities, investing in public education so that we can have a workforce that's prepared and ready for it. So when they get to the point where they're going into college for either a degree or a certificate that they have those basic AI skills and those basic skills that they need to be a productive part of our workforce.
Stivers: I agree with Derek a hundred percent and frankly I had lunch with the president of Ohio State on Friday. The way they're leaning into AI is I think leading edge and I think they are the best in class, best in the country right now of leaning into a AI. They've got a couple of advantages of some folks in the AI space giving them big money but they are really leaning into that better than any university in the county right now.
Amy Juravich: This is "Untangled" from All Sides, and I'm your host, Amy Juravich. This is a show that is a part of the WOSU public media project, Inside Reshaping Work. You can learn more at wosu.org slash inside. We're talking right now with Steve Stivers, president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce, and Derek Clay, president and CEO, of the Columbus Chamber of commerce.
Steve, you wrote an opinion piece for the dispatch a few months back where you said that Ohio has 1.4 million people with some college, but no degree. Talk to me more about that. Are you, what's the goal here? Do you want people to finish their degrees or do you want them to take another path?
Stivers: The truth is we need both. We need more people with degrees. When you look at Ohio compared to other states, we still don't have enough people with baccalaureate and advanced degrees. However, the other growth area, there's going to be very few people that go straight into the workforce without some additional training. That's the certification programs I talked about.
So if you're not going on to higher education at Ohio State for a four-year degree. You're going somewhere to get additional skills before you really get a high value job. Maybe you go straight into the workforce, but then you get those certifications over time. But there'll be very few people that have no additional training outside of K through 12. So I think that is the future of work of getting more specific skills for the employer that you work for on the equipment and the tasks that they need you trained on.
Juravich: Derek, let me ask you about that. What do you hear from businesses that you talk to? I mean, are they all still looking for employees with four-year degrees? Are bachelor's degrees as valuable right now, or do we need to be pushing trade schools more?
Clay: Not necessarily. The businesses that need four-year degrees are definitely pushing for those type of folks, right? But there are increasingly a number of employers out there that just need people that can do specific skills. So that's the reason why you see a rise in certificate-based education. You see a raise in different types of skill-based educational. It's a little bit of both, you know, some jobs that demand a four year degree, they're looking for that, but you have institutions like, you now, Columbus State, Columbus City Schools that are preparing these kids for the demand of right now, which is certificate based education.
Juravich: Well, Steve, you were nodding along. Can you give me an example? Like, what is something that you're hearing from businesses where they need a specific type of person? I brought up welding. Can you get me another one?
Stivers: Welding is a great example. Robotics controller is a great example, plumber is a great example almost all the skilled trades for building we have a huge shortage there electricians but a lot of folks will be controlling a machine or controlling a computer that is then doing other tasks they will be interacting with an AI agent or co-working with some augmented machine learning support.
So they'll be using their judgment and they'll using their leadership and tacking against things that aren't necessarily can't be done by a computer and interfacing with higher ups in a way that you can't just have two computers talk to each other. So I think that's where individual humans will continue to have a big role. In the future of work, but they'll be so much more productive, which is great for America, because we'll never have the lowest wages in the world, so we need to have some of the most productive workers in the word, so that we can compete with every other country around the world.
Juravich: Derek, Steve just made a list of things, you know, he said welder, he said plumber, he's said robot manager, you had a better word, do you want to add anything else to the list, Derek?
Clay: Yeah, one thing that I would say is the IT, you know, when you think about IT and cybersecurity, those are, that's a profession that definitely has benefited from certificate-based education.
Juravich: Coming up on All Sides, we're going to talk about Ohio's immigrant workforce, and we're gonna talk more about predicting who is the worker of tomorrow. That is when "Untangled" reshaping work from All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
Amy Juravich: You're listening to "Untangled" from All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. "Untangled" is a show where we take a complicated topic and untangle it for you, explain it in a way that's easier to understand. And this season, we are tackling work.
A recent report from the American Immigration Council found that immigrants in Ohio earned $27 billion in income and paid $7 billion in local, state, and federal taxes in 2023. Still with us to talk about the future of work for businesses in Columbus and around the state, we have Derek Clay, President and CEO of the Columbus Chamber of Commerce. Thanks again for being here, Derek.
Clay: Thank you Amy for having me.
Juravich: Steve Stivers, president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce. Thanks for being here Steve. Thanks, Amy. So that report I just mentioned Steve It in the I mentioned it in the introduction. It says Immigrants are essential to Ohio's future powering the state's workforce Strengthening critical industries and paying billions in taxes that communities depend on every day Do you agree about immigrants playing an essential role here? And I agree
Stivers: I agree 100%. And even when I served in Congress, I voted for several different immigration reform plans that, you know, weren't always exactly the same because it is so important that we reform our immigration policy. Canada, for example, has merit-based immigration. They put people that help their economy at the front of the line. America's policy does not do that.
But even when you look outside of international immigrants, there's 3.5 million Ohioans who grew up here that don't live here anymore. We can get immigration from inside the country as well as outside the country. And while I'm for international immigration reform and will continue to press for it and fight for it, I can tell you that I don't think Ohio will slow down even if that doesn't move as fast as we'd like.
Juravich: And Derek, this report shows that immigrants are filling gaps in helping with Ohio's workplace shortages. Do you find that to be the case in the central Ohio area? Where are immigrants filling gaps here?
Clay: It's absolutely the case. I mean, when you think about Ohio's economy, agriculture being one of the biggest, or is the biggest industry in Ohio, we have to have immigrants working and contributing to our economy. There's no way around it. This economy would fail in the United States if we don't have hardworking people that want to do the right thing, that want pay taxes and want to be here legally. If we don't have those folks, dead. There's gonna be a dire situation for our, not only our country, but our state and our region.
Juravich: Well, Steve, let's have you talk about the farm piece of your 8,000 members of the chamber. Do you have members who are they run big farming businesses here in Ohio?
Stivers: We do. We have a significant presence in the agri-industry sector and, you know, immigrants are important for our ag industry, but frankly they're important in a lot of industries in Ohio. Immigrants are filling very high-tech, very advanced parts of our economy and very low-tech manual parts of our economy, and those are the sort of two extremes.
There's some in the middle, but it's really the very high tech and very advanced degrees. Like doctors, researchers. Doctors, researchers, IT workers, nurses, and then lesser skilled folks. There's no such thing as an unskilled job, but lower skilled, more manual jobs are the other place that we see a lot of immigrant labor, because they're hard workers. And unfortunately, there are some Americans who just won't do some jobs.
Juravich: And, Derek, I think I read maybe on the Columbus Chamber's website, I'm not sure, that you mentioned the hospitality industry, too. That has to be important here in the city, right?
Clay: Absolutely. In a growing city like Columbus, hospitality is very important to us. We have a growing hotel bed community, if you will. And so immigrants contribute to that. And we want to make sure that we are protecting our economic base and our workforce by making sure that immigrants can come to a safe working environment. And a good working environment. We want to invite people that want to be here, that want contribute to our economy, and we don't want to make be in a position where we're making it difficult for those folks to earn a living.
Juravich: Yeah. And later on in this "Untangled" series, we're going to do an entire hour about Ohio's immigrant workforce. But just to Steve, before we end this segment, the American Immigration Council prepared the report that I mentioned on behalf of a group called Ohio Business for Immigration Solutions, OBIS. Have you heard of them?
Speaker 6: I have.
Juravich: Okay, there are, for our listeners, there is a coalition of more than 100 Ohio businesses, trade associations, chambers of commerce, and economic... We are a member.
Stivers: We are a member, I am a member of that group.
Juravich: All right, so they were hoping to modernize the immigration system to improve the state's economy. So tell me a little bit about what they're pushing for, what they'd like to see, and can Ohio do anything or is this all federal?
Stivers: It is a federal push. International immigration is a federal issue. And it really what they want is merit based immigration, they would like to see an A1B program and a both an agriculture and a business program, H1A and H1B program that work that are flexible.
And then obviously merit based immigration would put people that can help our economy at the front of the line for permanent green cards to be here and to help us grow our economy. So those are really the pieces that they're focused on. And I'm hopeful that some of that stuff can happen. Unfortunately, immigration has gotten to be a very sticky wicket, but it will help our economic grow and provide opportunity to other people.
Immigrants don't take jobs away from, if it's done right, don't take jobs from Americans. They help our economy grow faster to provide more jobs for Americans. And you know, you can do things right or wrong. But I believe there's a there's a great path forward, where we can do immigration reform. And it actually improves our growth in the American economy to say 3% annual growth, which would be huge.
Amy Juravich: This is Untangled From All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. This show is a part of the WOSU public media project Inside Reshaping Work. We're talking today with Steve Stivers, president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce, and Derek Clay, president and CEO of The Columbus Chamber of commerce.
Derek, you wrote an opinion piece for "The Columbus Dispatch" a few months back that brought up something I had not thought about when it comes to business growth. That's mental health. So you wrote that supporting mental health, resilience, and balance. Is not separate from economic growth. It's essential to sustaining it. So tell me more about why the Columbus Chamber wants to focus on the mental health of workers in the area.
Clay: I can tell you that mental health is super important. I think everybody knows that, and I think everybody would talk about it loosely. But we're actively trying to do something about it. So we created a program called A Better Us. And that's essentially a program that looks at your mental health and well-being, right?
We have so many things as employers and workers, business owners that we deal with on a daily basis. We have family issues that we're dealing with. We have internal work issues that were dealing with, you know, the stress of getting into work if you're commuting. I mean, there's so many different things and we put a lot of our energy into work, but we never really take a moment to think about ourselves.
So I feel that if you have a healthy workforce, then you have a healthy outcome. I haven't seen any studies, but I would love to see how much money that we lose as a region from folks that can't or won't work because of mental health issues. Mental health is personally something that's very important to me. My mother battled mental illness, and I saw some of the struggles that she went through, some of struggles that our family went through. And so that has carried me into my professional career now. And I want to make sure that at the Columbus Chamber, we're at least addressing the issue and make it aware so that people can get the appropriate assistance that they may need.
Juravich: Steve, you're over there taking notes while Derek's talking. I am.
Stivers: I think the Columbus Chamber has done an amazing job on leading on mental health issues. I want to commend Derek and the Columbus chamber and in fact we're trying to follow their lead on Thursday. We're rolling out something we call the mental health toolkit, which provides tools and resources for folks dealing with mental health, whether it's somebody at a company, their employees, or the families of those folks.
Because what Derek alluded to is there's a lot of absenteeism around mental health issues, whether it's the employee or somebody in their family, and even there might be physically present but not mentally on the top of their game because they're worried about what's going on with either themself or the member of their family. That's why we're rolling out the mental health toolkit. We're trying to follow Derek's lead to support.
Whether you're an Ohio Chamber member or not, you can go to the Ohio Chamber website after Thursday. And get access to our mental health toolkit, the same way you can get our opioid toolkit for folks dealing with drug issues as well. So it just complements what we're already doing on the opioid toolkit side. And it follows Derek's lead, which they've been a great leader.
Juravich: We're running really short on time, so I was hoping to get to one of the Ohio Chamber's top priorities, and one of your top legislative priorities is child care, expanding access to affordable child care. Tell me why this is important to the future of the workforce here.
Stivers: Well, both child care and housing are important to the Ohio Chamber because they're workforce issues. If you can't have a place to live, you can work here. If you don't have child care, and you want to be a dual working family, both spouses might not be able to work if you can get child care that's affordable and accessible. And it has to be all of those things. So that's why we're focused on child care. That's why were focused on housing. And both of those issues are workforce issues, Amy.
Juravich: Derek, what are you trying to do with on the affordable housing front? I mean, Columbus is really struggling to keep up here.
Clay: Absolutely, and we support everything that Steve's doing in regards to child care and housing. We also support the regional housing strategy, right? City of Columbus reformed their zoning laws so that we can increase our housing in central Ohio. And we think that that's critical. And with all of the growth that we have, if we do not keep up with the housing demands that we had, we're gonna lag in the future of getting these outstanding. Business deals that have been coming our way. So we got to keep up with housing. We got to make sure that we're promoting public education and having a good ready workforce. And we got make sure that we are keeping ourselves healthy through mental health.
Juravich: In the one minute we have left, Steve, are lawmakers responding to you when you tell them that we need affordable childcare? I mean, is something gonna change?
Stivers: Yes, so I think they've done a pretty good job of responding. They've started to, they finally lowered the, or increased the AMI to which they will give some state support, but we're also looking at average middle income. So the average income, like it used to be 100%, I think we went up to 120% of poverty. So, the key is to get people that are working.
Child care and that's why we have to raise the wage the average wage under which we'll get some support But we're looking at innovative programs like what Kentucky did called a tri-share program where the individual family shares some burden The company that employs them share some of the burden and the state shares some of burden because they all win If people go back to work and if we can get both both spouses working So we're working looking at models like that and lawmakers have been very interested and open The other thing we're trying to do is make it easier because in 80 of our 88 counties, it's not going to be a big child care center. It's going to an entrepreneur opening their home to bring kids in, and they're trying make entrepreneurship easier and lower the burdens, regulatory burden, on entrepreneurs that want to do child care.
Juravich: We've been talking this hour about the present and future of work in Columbus and around Ohio with Steve Stivers, president and CEO of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce. Thanks for joining us, Steve. Great. Thanks. Good job, Derek, too. And Derek Clay, president, and CEO, of the Columbus Chamber of commerce. Thank you for your time, Derek.
Clay: Yeah. Thank you, Amy. And thank you, Steve, for being a great host as well.
Juravich: And this is "Untangled", reshaping work from All Sides. And WOSU, be sure to subscribe to the "Untangled" podcast so you don't miss an episode. For "Untangled" and All Sides, I'm Amy Juravich.