Whether it’s glaciers, sand dunes, mountains or beaches, America’s National Parks are home to some of the most beautiful landscapes to be found in America.
Travel writer Mike Oswald has spent a great deal of time traversing and documenting all of them.
He’s journeyed thousands of miles over hundreds of visits and distilled what he’s learned into books.
His latest book is titled Public Land: 1,000 Western Wonders. In addition to the national parks, the book also explores national forests and monuments as well as state and regional parks.
Guest:
Support WOSU 89.7 NPR News during our spring membership drive and you can receive a copy of Mike Oswald's Public Land: 1000 Western Wonders Book as a thank you gift.
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. This is our membership drive. More about that in just a moment. Whether it's glaciers, sand dunes, mountains, or beaches, America's national parks are home to some of the most beautiful landscapes to be found in the country.
Travel writer Mike Oswald has spent a great deal of time traversing and documenting them all. He's journeyed thousands of miles, over hundreds of visits, and distilled what he's learned into his many books. His latest book, brand new, is titled... "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders".
In addition to the national parks, the book also explores national forests and monuments, as well as state and regional parks. Mike Oswald, welcome back to All Sides.
Mike Oswald: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm always happy to come down to ArchCity. I listened to a few episodes that I learned. You learned that.
Juravich: I learned that you learned that we used to be called our city just for like a 20 year period back in like I think what did he say 1920 or something like that? Yeah.
Oswald: Yeah, the arches are no more. The arches no more!
Juravich: I, we can talk about arch, you know, there's a, there is a national park named that, right?
Oswald: There are some arches out there in the west.
Juravich: But I want to thank you for driving down and joining us here in the studio. So your latest book focuses on 11 Western states. Why did you decide to narrow your focus this time? Why did you pick those 11 states?
Oswald: Um, it's a lot selfish, to be honest, because I want to explore those states more, there's a ton of public land out there. There are a lot of national parks and that is where, I guess, not the most crowding is going on in the national parks out West, but they are getting pretty crowded and as I looked around, I got to be driving around craning my neck and be like, what's that?
What's that as I'm driving between park to park. And so I want it to take some time, figure it out and try to relieve some of that stress that the parks are feeling. And to let visitors have a better summer vacation by not dealing with some of those crowds that you get in the national parks.
Juravich: So in your new book, you have 1,000 Western wonders. So of those thousands, some of them are, you know, there are national park sites, but you're also exploring national forests and then state and regional parks. So you're trying to like spread the wealth to be like, you can go to the national park, but this state park is just as beautiful, right? Something like that.
Oswald: Yeah, absolutely. So I was trying to be smart and create sort of itineraries for people, just in between spots. Because a lot of the parks are always drive away from one another.
And in between, there's a lot a national forest, a lot of state parks, different campgrounds, like campground that you don't have to book a year in advance, and some that you can just pull right in. And a lot them are just as beautiful as the national park.
So for years, I've been calling the national parks sort of the meme of the outdoor world, and they deserve it. They're beautiful, and people love them. And that's why they get shared and re-shared and get all the attention.
But a lot of these other places like national forests and state parks, they don't get nearly the amount of attention and people just drive right by them. Often through the night. And that'd be another thing I'd encourage people to do is to drive during the day and you'll see a lot more, like there's something beautiful everywhere.
Like I was just sitting at Muir Lake here in Columbus and it's beautiful right here in the middle of downtown. And
Juravich: You went to Mirror Lake on Ohio State's campus. Yeah. Yeah, they're a beautiful spot.
Oswald: That's kind of the thing like if you look a little bit you'll find these places and and Yeah, so I'm just trying to help point people in the right direction I guess to have a little better experience on their vacations.
Juravich: Well, this is our membership drive on 89.7 NPR News, and I want to remind you that listener support is the most important part of our budget. Make a gift right now at wosu.org or give us a call 866-897-9678.
Discover the beauty of the American West with "Public Land," "Public Land 1000 Western Wonders" by Mike Oswald. It's a stunning guide that explores more than 390 million acres of public lands across 11 states. From iconic places like Zion National Park and Glacier National Park to lesser-known gems, the places with fewer crowds.
And with hundreds of inspiring images and practical insights, this book is the perfect companion for your next adventure. You can get this book as your thank you gift today with a sustaining gift of $15 a month or a one-time gift of 180 dollars at wosu.org.
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866-897-9678 or wosu.org. Mike, what do you hope that people take away from the book, "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders?" I mean, you can say you hope they take away a thousand new insights, right, because there's a thousand things, but what's the big takeaway?
Oswald: Um, I hope they take away how much public land there is out there. So you mentioned that 390 million acres in the West and that's a lot of land, right? Like I looked up how big Ohio is. So it's 30 million, like less than 30 million acres. Okay.
So you're talking six, six times the size of Ohio. Okay. And, uh, like when you look at the National Park Service, they manage 85 million acres, so that's three Ohio's worth of land.
Juravich: Okay. Yeah. So you're talking, I mean, in these 11 states, that is 390 million. Wow.
Oswald: And that's kind of like a common narrative, right? That there is enough land, there's too many people. And I hear it all the time and it makes me kind of sad. Like misanthropy is kind of at an all time high, I feel, at least in my lifetime.
And I'm like, well, we're not all that bad. And everybody's just trying to do the same thing. And so I get in a lot of conversations like that and people kind of complain about people playing music and people complain about not being the only person at these beautiful places.
And I think you're the same people. You're both very selfish. Like one person wants to be there. On their own and the other person like acts like they are the only person there.
So I guess that would be my takeaway. If you want a place to yourself, you can find it if you look. If you just want a voice that you don't have to plan a year in advance, you could find that too.
If you are looking at the flagship sort of parks that everybody knows, the Yosemites, the Yellowstones, the Grand Canyons, those are there too and you just have to put a little more effort into it. But it is to try to make a... A more fulfilling, more just more efficient trip too.
So you aren't, like I said, driving hours between destinations and find these pit stops that can be equally rewarding to the big national park stops.
Juravich: So if you want to go on a hike and you want to see zero people, you can find a place to do that and your book is going to help you do that. But you're saying like, don't go to the Grand Canyon. You're not going to find a hike with zero people on it, right?
Oswald: Yeah, you probably can because there's, I think, 600 miles of trails in the Grand Canyon. There are a lot, but yeah, for the most part, if you want to find fewer people, you go to lesser known places, mainly national forests and BLM land.
Juravich: I want to say thank you to Angela Pratt from Columbus. Thanks for your support. We also heard from Meramec Bratton. Thank you for your as well. And thank you for writing though, Tom.
We appreciate all of the programming WOSU provides. We thank you your support today. You could get a great thank you gift. If you love the outdoors or dream about your next trip, "Public Land 1000 Western Wonders" will open the door to unforgettable places.
Author Mike Oswald takes you beyond the usual stops to waterfalls, alpine lakes, and quiet landscapes across the national parks, the forests, and the public lands. It is 393 pages of inspiration that will help you plan where to go next.
Start a monthly gift of $15 a month right now or make a one-time gift of 180 dollars at wosu.org. And public radio is for the lifelong learner. It's for people who chase their curiosity.
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Make a gift right now, get this great book about national parks and other Western wonders. Give at wosu.org. I wanted to ask you about, much like a lot of parts of our society today, the national parks are not immune to politics.
The national forests aren't immune to politicians. There's been staffing cuts, funding cuts, signage changes at some parks. In your travels, how have you seen this playing out on the ground?
Oswald: Uh, yeah, for sure. Politics are, uh, deeply embedded in these things. And I guess to be fair, all of my information is anecdotal at best.
And from conversations and observations from in the parks and, uh yeah, there are signs that are coming down to sort of Reshape history to make it a naked boy. There's that one party wants and I never even know I I don't want to be unaffiliated politics in general like I Wish like nature should not nature should be like ice cream and travel like everybody should be supportive of it and like it for the most part except for like one or two percent of people
Juravich: Like tacos and pizza, make everyone happy because you can make it so many different ways.
Oswald: But everything's partisan and everything's making making points. I think the biggest issue is like the staff cuts are a major problem. Undeniably, park rangers make the parks better and maintenance is obviously required.
If you think about a place like Yellowstone, like it's a literal city in the middle of nowhere where they have to have sewage. They have to water for it's maybe 30,000 people are coming in there per day in the Middle of summer. And it has to be able to accommodate that. And you need money to do it.
And I guess on the flip side of things, if you're looking at both sides of the political, like your show is All Sides. It is like, I've never heard anyone turn down more money, right? Like no one ever asked for less.
Speaker 3: Right.
Oswald: So it's like so I have no idea what this case is and I know people are unhappy with the the current administration But without being in there like all I'm doing is parroting what I hear so it so it is like discontent with what's going on and I understand it and the the shutdowns are problematic always it makes things just more difficult for everybody and But beyond that like it's just an unfortunate situation that things need to be politicized like nature should not be politicize
Juravich: Well, how do you view the park service? They've lost roughly a quarter of their permanent employees, but how are they adjusting to the decreased staffing? Because I've heard a lot of interviews with them. I mean, they truly love these parks. They care about it. They want to keep them up and running. So are they working harder than ever?
Oswald: I imagine they are. I mean, they're literally their home, right? And they love these places and want everybody to experience them the way they do. I imagine that they are working quite a bit harder and they're in the middle of record crowds, right, so they have less staff, more visitors, and it's just a bad situation all around.
And I've heard lots of problems with getting summer help. That's an issue that like summer help kind of needs to be independently wealthy to live in these areas and work there. And it's, uh, I don't know.
I I've said it many times, like I would not want to be a superintendent at any of these places because you're just between a rock and a hard place between keeping the stakeholders and gateway communities happy and trying to keep the visitors happy on the other end and it's a, and keep your staff happy too, like that's a that's, a major issue, especially when there's morale from people taking BIOS and...
Juravich: Well, talk to me about the difference between a national park and a national forest. Is there a distinct difference with the staffing or what is happening in a national forest versus a park?
Oswald: It's much more bare bones than National Forest. Speaking of Muir Lake again, I was just thinking about this while I was sitting there and I was thinking like what's a good analogy for National Foresters and National Parks?
And I had like this light bulb moment. I think it's like universities, like national parks, the universities, they get a lot of money, they have a lot infrastructure and for a lot people they work really well but they're more expensive and you still have to like put in the effort to like make good choices about what you're doing.
And I see the national forest like going to trades if they aren't as expensive. You can get a good time out of it. If you put the effort into have a good life, they make your life better.
But it's, uh, it's it really is the national parks have serious infrastructure. They have lodges, they have big campgrounds, almost all the roads are paved. They have all the staff to like, whenever you have questions, there's somebody there, national forests, like you don't see Rangers, you have to go find them.
I was talking to one Forest Service Ranger and it was the middle of the busiest time for him. And he's like. They bring in people from the National Wildlife Reserve and they bring in people from The Fisheries to kind of help out.
So it is kind of a, they're in it together, the different agencies to make that work when it's busy time for the national forest, but, uh, for the most part, national forest like there's a lot of forest service roads. So they're unpaved and it's just more difficult to access. They're less signage.
So you have to kind to know what you're doing. Uh, a lot the trails don't have bridges. So you're crossing creeks. It's more primitive. It's. And a lot of people, I think, will find that kind of exhilarating when they're out there.
But if it's not something they're into, you have to know what you're in. Yeah. So you could have a bad time too. Like, Oh shoot, I had to turn around when I got to this river or.
Juravich: Yeah, do you have to ever make a reservation for any national forest?
Oswald: You do. So a lot of the campgrounds are on Recreation.gov. But for an example, like so 2024 Labor Day weekend, I was in the middle of the San Juan mountains and I finished a hike.
It was just about dark and I could walk into a campground in one of the prettiest places in the country and pick a site. So if Rocky Mountain National Park, you would have had to have those books, like the minute they're available. Yeah.
So it's totally different thing. And I didn't even take a site like I'm a solo traveler. So I take a dispersed campsite. And that's another thing that they do differently the national park suit.
And I would advise national parks to do this where you can just camp kind of wherever there are a lot of people who make makeshift fire rings and there's room for one vehicle, maybe two, and you park there in camp and you're all on your own.
And it's really nice experience just you and nature and the stars. And they don't do that in national parks. Like I, they have a lot, a lot big parking lots. They can make them open, but it's again, one of those kind of a gateway community. They want people in hotels and cabin carons outside the park. In.
Juravich: Yeah, my brother and sister-in-law live in Denver, and we wanted to go visit them about a year or two ago, and we want to go to Rocky Mountain National Park. And so she's texting us, and she was like, what day do you wanna go?
And I was like our trip's not forever, why do you? And she's like, no, I have to get the tickets tomorrow, like what, yeah. So I learned that, that you have to just make a plan and get a ticket, yeah
Oswald: Yeah, so a lot and a lot of that creates fear of missing out, right? Like so you think that this is the thing to do everyone's doing it You got to do it and it makes it really competitive and some people love that. Yeah. And others don't so
That this too. It's showing people different ways to travel so if you love the planning if you loved getting in there and Elbowing people for reservations and these things and and they're little games people play like you can book campgrounds for two weeks in advance.
It a lot people book them for two and then cancel what they don't want. So it creates problems, like when you sit there and look you're like, it just became available. There's no penalty for canceling. How come none are available?
And so yeah, it's just different type of situation, but they definitely aren't less beautiful and in the national forest.
Juravich: So the national parks have come like to have a queue and a ticket waiting, kind of like Disney World or something where you have to plan.
Oswald: Very much so and I've recently seen articles like they're trying to do the counter narrative where crowds are good. And I've never met a person who's like I want more crowds. I want my good luck I want to wait in at the entrance for three hours instead of two hours. It's like, I don't know who you're talking to
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. This is our membership drive. With us in the studio today, we have travel writer, Mike Oswald, and we're talking about his brand new book, "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders".
And this is listener support at 89.7 NPR News. It's our membership drive. And that means it's time for you to support the in-depth conversations we produce every day. You're only gonna find this kind of news and information on public radio. So support the station now at wosu.org.
And this is a very special time to become a member because for this hour only, we are talking about our thank you gift, the book "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders". From the Grand Canyon to the hidden waterfalls like Proxy Falls, "Public Land 1000 Western Wonders" brings together the best of the West in one beautifully designed book.
It highlights both well-known destinations and quieter alternatives where you can explore without the crowds. Start a sustaining gift today at $15 a month or make a one-time gift of $180 just to receive your copy of this great book.
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If $15 a month or a one-time gift of $180 works for you. Get your very own copy of "Public Land, 1,000 Western Wonders". So in the opening of your book, you encourage people to sit in on public discussions about national parks. What kind of issues are addressed in these public discussions, and how do you find one to sit on?
Oswald: Um, so you'd go to the park websites or there's social media feeds that they'll usually list when they're going to be discussing certain issues. And, uh, I mean, the issues, the, issues are all over the place.
It's from like protecting species to campground management to just visit like timed entry passes were, uh brought in during the, um, pandemic just to relieve crowds and to make it easier to enter the park kind of, I mentioned those long lines that entrances that nobody wants to sit in. And so it can, makes you breathe breeze right into the park.
But it also created another problem later, like trailhead's parking spots would fill up. And so you're getting into the park and you're just driving through because you can't find a parking spot anywhere. So it just propagates the problem.
And it also create like this year at Glacier National Park, they're having, you can only park at Logan Pass for three hours. And it's popular trailhead for taking a pretty long, long trek, so you have to take a hyper shuttle.
It's smart, like they should probably do that because a lot of people want to get up there, but the parking lot would fill sometimes before the sun would come up. And so it's like- And people would be gone all day. Yeah, and people are like, they're spending a lot money to go there.
And then they want to see these things and they just literally can't because they can't find a parking spot. And I understand the push against making parking lots larger. Like that kind of seems to be the solution to a lot these places. But that seems anti-
Juravich: But that seems anti-park, yeah.
Oswald: It's the anti conservation anti nature anti everything and it's and like that's kind of my solution is show people more because there's just so Much land but that'll make people upset too because then you have more people at other places where they don't want more people.
It's it's a profit propagates propagates issues. But uh, but yeah, so there there are lots of issues that are brought up. I had a funny one that I sat in for Isle Royale where they're trying to discuss the wolves and moose on the island and one guy in the crowd. He just goes get rid of all of them and bring in like two other species that are never there.
And I'm like, what in the world? Get rid of them. Yeah, get rid all the wolves in the moose and bring. I forgot what species he wanted. And then he's like, let us hunt them. And I was like, this isn't like your little wish list.
I guess it is your wish list, so if yeah, if you if you want parks to do things differently, because I do know there are a lot of people who have just bad experiences in the parks and less than ideal. And that's when like. It propagates other bad things like people litter, people vandalize.
Like I don't think most people do that like fully intentionally. Like I'm gonna go to this beautiful place and do something stupid. Like I normally think it's a byproduct of just not having the time that they thought they would have.
Juravich: Did you give away, I mean, in your 1,000 Western wonders, you're trying to have people avoid the crowd, so you're showing them some like off the beaten path places. Did you get any feedback yet where someone was like, you gave away my secret spot.
Oswald: I'm gonna make some enemies. I was talking, yeah, I did a podcast interview with the national parks traveler, Kurt, and he's just like, yeah. Pretty much got them all. And you could see, I'm pretty sure I didn't get them all because there's 390 million acres, but there are a lot of spots that are.
And I do, I am a little conflicted about that, but I spent a whole month thinking about whether what I'm doing is right or wrong. And than to appease a small minority of the outside insiders. I think the public deserves to know about their public. I end the book with, if you didn't know, now you know. Which is just like.
Juravich: But keep it a secret right you should you should add that like shh don't tell anyone if you buy the book then you know
Oswald: We live in a time now where if too many people go to these places, we do have technological solutions to them. There are no secrets. You can see how people managed them before.
They start, they name something the same name as the place that they wanted to protect, not far away, and then send people there. They do all their little things, just kind of games, and I'm like, I get it. Like, you don't want...
Juravich: All you need is a reddit forum now and it'll explain it away for you, right?
Oswald: Yeah, but I the internet has ways of scrubbing things to that there are there are a lot of places that you don't find
Juravich: Now, in this book, the pictures are gorgeous. Did you take most of them yourself? I was like, I mean, they're beautiful pictures.
Oswald: I did. Yeah. That's part of the reason why I kind of upgraded to a coffee table book. My photography is pretty decent now and I'm still unfortunately not the type of person that waits around for like that perfect light but every once in a while I am there in the right place at the right time and get some pretty good photos.
I kind wish I could slow down and kind of enjoy it more but I probably never will do that. There's too much to see and too much to do.
Juravich: We should describe for our radio audience. It is a coffee table book. It's a big book. I mean, you know, bigger than a phone book for people who remember what a phonebook is, you now? And I mean just gorgeous, beautiful pictures. What is the picture on the cover?
Oswald: That is Parker Lake in Inyo National Forest. So that's one that people will be mad at me for. You gave it away on the cover. It's only a couple miles. Pretty easy hike. Nothing tricky. And the whole Eastern Sierra is people who won't like me saying just that. The Eastern Sierra's amazing.
Juravich: So listeners, if you go to our website, when you make your gift at wosu.org, there's a picture of the book, so you can see the picture we're talking about that's on the cover. But I mean, absolutely gorgeous. It's, I mean it's like the perfect reflection in the, is it a lake? I don't, yeah.
Oswald: Yeah, Parker Lake. Yeah, it's a great book. If you're an armchair traveler, veteran, road tripper, you'll learn a whole lot about our country just by going through there.
I put a bunch of stats in, like the percentage of state land, percentage of federal land, and then broken it down by the different agencies. And it was very eye-opening to me, and I thought I knew a lot about public land.
And once I was going around, there's so many places that... When I was just looking at a map while I was in one place, I'm like, well, maybe I should go check that out too. And just all sorts of happy accidents one after another.
Juravich: I just randomly opened the book to page 188 and I came to this gorgeous picture of Lake Powell. Tell me about that. Where is it? Why is it so beautiful?
Oswald: Oh my gosh. That's another place you won't be thrilled about. That one actually, Nat Geo shared that picture quite a while ago, so it's not like it's out there. But that's Hole in the Rock Road.
You go through Grand Staircase, Escalante National Monument, which is probably the premier BL Bureau of Land Management site. And you end up in Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, which is actually managed by the National Park Service.
And it's maybe a 16-mile hike to that viewpoint and that said like extremely low water level, is what they say, and I'm not sure what the truth is and all those things.
Juravich: You took the picture at a low-level time?
Oswald: It was a low-level time. So so I was imagining it at like twice the fill like that's a serious problem for boaters like you have no idea what you're going through like it seems like a Boat wreck waiting to happen because boaters do go through there.
But uh, yeah, this is extremely be it's they started goose necks in the in the river and that's the the Colorado River dammed up just upstream of the Grand Canyon
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. This is our membership drive. We're talking with travel writer Mike Oswald, who is also a brilliant photographer, and we're talking about his brand new book, "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders".
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I wanna say thank you to Patrick McLean in Columbus. Thanks, Patrick, for your gift of support. We were talking about the reservation system that's been used to control crowds in the national parks.
I mean, it kind of started because of COVID, but then they've kept using it. I'm sure they've upped the numbers, but they've keep using the reservation systems. However earlier this year I read that a few parks are doing away with some reservation systems. Why the change?
Oswald: I don't know why they...
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Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. This is our membership drive. More about that in just a moment. Whether it's glaciers, sand dunes, mountains, or beaches, America's national parks are home to some of the most beautiful landscapes to be found in the country.
Travel writer Mike Oswald has spent a great deal of time traversing and documenting them all. He's journeyed thousands of miles, over hundreds of visits, and distilled what he's learned into his many books. His latest book, brand new, is titled... "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders".
In addition to the national parks, the book also explores national forests and monuments, as well as state and regional parks. Mike Oswald, welcome back to All Sides.
Mike Oswald: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm always happy to come down to ArchCity. I listened to a few episodes that I learned. You learned that.
Juravich: I learned that you learned that we used to be called our city just for like a 20 year period back in like I think what did he say 1920 or something like that? Yeah.
Oswald: Yeah, the arches are no more. The arches no more!
Juravich: I, we can talk about arch, you know, there's a, there is a national park named that, right?
Oswald: There are some arches out there in the west.
Juravich: But I want to thank you for driving down and joining us here in the studio. So your latest book focuses on 11 Western states. Why did you decide to narrow your focus this time? Why did you pick those 11 states?
Oswald: Um, it's a lot selfish, to be honest, because I want to explore those states more, there's a ton of public land out there. There are a lot of national parks and that is where, I guess, not the most crowding is going on in the national parks out West, but they are getting pretty crowded and as I looked around, I got to be driving around craning my neck and be like, what's that?
What's that as I'm driving between park to park. And so I want it to take some time, figure it out and try to relieve some of that stress that the parks are feeling. And to let visitors have a better summer vacation by not dealing with some of those crowds that you get in the national parks.
Juravich: So in your new book, you have 1,000 Western wonders. So of those thousands, some of them are, you know, there are national park sites, but you're also exploring national forests and then state and regional parks. So you're trying to like spread the wealth to be like, you can go to the national park, but this state park is just as beautiful, right? Something like that.
Oswald: Yeah, absolutely. So I was trying to be smart and create sort of itineraries for people, just in between spots. Because a lot of the parks are always drive away from one another.
And in between, there's a lot a national forest, a lot of state parks, different campgrounds, like campground that you don't have to book a year in advance, and some that you can just pull right in. And a lot them are just as beautiful as the national park.
So for years, I've been calling the national parks sort of the meme of the outdoor world, and they deserve it. They're beautiful, and people love them. And that's why they get shared and re-shared and get all the attention.
But a lot of these other places like national forests and state parks, they don't get nearly the amount of attention and people just drive right by them. Often through the night. And that'd be another thing I'd encourage people to do is to drive during the day and you'll see a lot more, like there's something beautiful everywhere.
Like I was just sitting at Muir Lake here in Columbus and it's beautiful right here in the middle of downtown. And
Juravich: You went to Mirror Lake on Ohio State's campus. Yeah. Yeah, they're a beautiful spot.
Oswald: That's kind of the thing like if you look a little bit you'll find these places and and Yeah, so I'm just trying to help point people in the right direction I guess to have a little better experience on their vacations.
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866-897-9678 or wosu.org. Mike, what do you hope that people take away from the book, "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders?" I mean, you can say you hope they take away a thousand new insights, right, because there's a thousand things, but what's the big takeaway?
Oswald: Um, I hope they take away how much public land there is out there. So you mentioned that 390 million acres in the West and that's a lot of land, right? Like I looked up how big Ohio is. So it's 30 million, like less than 30 million acres. Okay.
So you're talking six, six times the size of Ohio. Okay. And, uh, like when you look at the National Park Service, they manage 85 million acres, so that's three Ohio's worth of land.
Juravich: Okay. Yeah. So you're talking, I mean, in these 11 states, that is 390 million. Wow.
Oswald: And that's kind of like a common narrative, right? That there is enough land, there's too many people. And I hear it all the time and it makes me kind of sad. Like misanthropy is kind of at an all time high, I feel, at least in my lifetime.
And I'm like, well, we're not all that bad. And everybody's just trying to do the same thing. And so I get in a lot of conversations like that and people kind of complain about people playing music and people complain about not being the only person at these beautiful places.
And I think you're the same people. You're both very selfish. Like one person wants to be there. On their own and the other person like acts like they are the only person there.
So I guess that would be my takeaway. If you want a place to yourself, you can find it if you look. If you just want a voice that you don't have to plan a year in advance, you could find that too.
If you are looking at the flagship sort of parks that everybody knows, the Yosemites, the Yellowstones, the Grand Canyons, those are there too and you just have to put a little more effort into it. But it is to try to make a... A more fulfilling, more just more efficient trip too.
So you aren't, like I said, driving hours between destinations and find these pit stops that can be equally rewarding to the big national park stops.
Juravich: So if you want to go on a hike and you want to see zero people, you can find a place to do that and your book is going to help you do that. But you're saying like, don't go to the Grand Canyon. You're not going to find a hike with zero people on it, right?
Oswald: Yeah, you probably can because there's, I think, 600 miles of trails in the Grand Canyon. There are a lot, but yeah, for the most part, if you want to find fewer people, you go to lesser known places, mainly national forests and BLM land.
Juravich: I want to say thank you to Angela Pratt from Columbus. Thanks for your support. We also heard from Meramec Bratton. Thank you for your as well. And thank you for writing though, Tom.
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Make a gift right now, get this great book about national parks and other Western wonders. Give at wosu.org. I wanted to ask you about, much like a lot of parts of our society today, the national parks are not immune to politics.
The national forests aren't immune to politicians. There's been staffing cuts, funding cuts, signage changes at some parks. In your travels, how have you seen this playing out on the ground?
Oswald: Uh, yeah, for sure. Politics are, uh, deeply embedded in these things. And I guess to be fair, all of my information is anecdotal at best.
And from conversations and observations from in the parks and, uh yeah, there are signs that are coming down to sort of Reshape history to make it a naked boy. There's that one party wants and I never even know I I don't want to be unaffiliated politics in general like I Wish like nature should not nature should be like ice cream and travel like everybody should be supportive of it and like it for the most part except for like one or two percent of people
Juravich: Like tacos and pizza, make everyone happy because you can make it so many different ways.
Oswald: But everything's partisan and everything's making making points. I think the biggest issue is like the staff cuts are a major problem. Undeniably, park rangers make the parks better and maintenance is obviously required.
If you think about a place like Yellowstone, like it's a literal city in the middle of nowhere where they have to have sewage. They have to water for it's maybe 30,000 people are coming in there per day in the Middle of summer. And it has to be able to accommodate that. And you need money to do it.
And I guess on the flip side of things, if you're looking at both sides of the political, like your show is All Sides. It is like, I've never heard anyone turn down more money, right? Like no one ever asked for less.
Speaker 3: Right.
Oswald: So it's like so I have no idea what this case is and I know people are unhappy with the the current administration But without being in there like all I'm doing is parroting what I hear so it so it is like discontent with what's going on and I understand it and the the shutdowns are problematic always it makes things just more difficult for everybody and But beyond that like it's just an unfortunate situation that things need to be politicized like nature should not be politicize
Juravich: Well, how do you view the park service? They've lost roughly a quarter of their permanent employees, but how are they adjusting to the decreased staffing? Because I've heard a lot of interviews with them. I mean, they truly love these parks. They care about it. They want to keep them up and running. So are they working harder than ever?
Oswald: I imagine they are. I mean, they're literally their home, right? And they love these places and want everybody to experience them the way they do. I imagine that they are working quite a bit harder and they're in the middle of record crowds, right, so they have less staff, more visitors, and it's just a bad situation all around.
And I've heard lots of problems with getting summer help. That's an issue that like summer help kind of needs to be independently wealthy to live in these areas and work there. And it's, uh, I don't know.
I I've said it many times, like I would not want to be a superintendent at any of these places because you're just between a rock and a hard place between keeping the stakeholders and gateway communities happy and trying to keep the visitors happy on the other end and it's a, and keep your staff happy too, like that's a that's, a major issue, especially when there's morale from people taking BIOS and...
Juravich: Well, talk to me about the difference between a national park and a national forest. Is there a distinct difference with the staffing or what is happening in a national forest versus a park?
Oswald: It's much more bare bones than National Forest. Speaking of Muir Lake again, I was just thinking about this while I was sitting there and I was thinking like what's a good analogy for National Foresters and National Parks?
And I had like this light bulb moment. I think it's like universities, like national parks, the universities, they get a lot of money, they have a lot infrastructure and for a lot people they work really well but they're more expensive and you still have to like put in the effort to like make good choices about what you're doing.
And I see the national forest like going to trades if they aren't as expensive. You can get a good time out of it. If you put the effort into have a good life, they make your life better.
But it's, uh, it's it really is the national parks have serious infrastructure. They have lodges, they have big campgrounds, almost all the roads are paved. They have all the staff to like, whenever you have questions, there's somebody there, national forests, like you don't see Rangers, you have to go find them.
I was talking to one Forest Service Ranger and it was the middle of the busiest time for him. And he's like. They bring in people from the National Wildlife Reserve and they bring in people from The Fisheries to kind of help out.
So it is kind of a, they're in it together, the different agencies to make that work when it's busy time for the national forest, but, uh, for the most part, national forest like there's a lot of forest service roads. So they're unpaved and it's just more difficult to access. They're less signage.
So you have to kind to know what you're doing. Uh, a lot the trails don't have bridges. So you're crossing creeks. It's more primitive. It's. And a lot of people, I think, will find that kind of exhilarating when they're out there.
But if it's not something they're into, you have to know what you're in. Yeah. So you could have a bad time too. Like, Oh shoot, I had to turn around when I got to this river or.
Juravich: Yeah, do you have to ever make a reservation for any national forest?
Oswald: You do. So a lot of the campgrounds are on Recreation.gov. But for an example, like so 2024 Labor Day weekend, I was in the middle of the San Juan mountains and I finished a hike.
It was just about dark and I could walk into a campground in one of the prettiest places in the country and pick a site. So if Rocky Mountain National Park, you would have had to have those books, like the minute they're available. Yeah.
So it's totally different thing. And I didn't even take a site like I'm a solo traveler. So I take a dispersed campsite. And that's another thing that they do differently the national park suit.
And I would advise national parks to do this where you can just camp kind of wherever there are a lot of people who make makeshift fire rings and there's room for one vehicle, maybe two, and you park there in camp and you're all on your own.
And it's really nice experience just you and nature and the stars. And they don't do that in national parks. Like I, they have a lot, a lot big parking lots. They can make them open, but it's again, one of those kind of a gateway community. They want people in hotels and cabin carons outside the park. In.
Juravich: Yeah, my brother and sister-in-law live in Denver, and we wanted to go visit them about a year or two ago, and we want to go to Rocky Mountain National Park. And so she's texting us, and she was like, what day do you wanna go?
And I was like our trip's not forever, why do you? And she's like, no, I have to get the tickets tomorrow, like what, yeah. So I learned that, that you have to just make a plan and get a ticket, yeah
Oswald: Yeah, so a lot and a lot of that creates fear of missing out, right? Like so you think that this is the thing to do everyone's doing it You got to do it and it makes it really competitive and some people love that. Yeah. And others don't so
That this too. It's showing people different ways to travel so if you love the planning if you loved getting in there and Elbowing people for reservations and these things and and they're little games people play like you can book campgrounds for two weeks in advance.
It a lot people book them for two and then cancel what they don't want. So it creates problems, like when you sit there and look you're like, it just became available. There's no penalty for canceling. How come none are available?
And so yeah, it's just different type of situation, but they definitely aren't less beautiful and in the national forest.
Juravich: So the national parks have come like to have a queue and a ticket waiting, kind of like Disney World or something where you have to plan.
Oswald: Very much so and I've recently seen articles like they're trying to do the counter narrative where crowds are good. And I've never met a person who's like I want more crowds. I want my good luck I want to wait in at the entrance for three hours instead of two hours. It's like, I don't know who you're talking to
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. This is our membership drive. With us in the studio today, we have travel writer, Mike Oswald, and we're talking about his brand new book, "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders".
And this is listener support at 89.7 NPR News. It's our membership drive. And that means it's time for you to support the in-depth conversations we produce every day. You're only gonna find this kind of news and information on public radio. So support the station now at wosu.org.
And this is a very special time to become a member because for this hour only, we are talking about our thank you gift, the book "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders". From the Grand Canyon to the hidden waterfalls like Proxy Falls, "Public Land 1000 Western Wonders" brings together the best of the West in one beautifully designed book.
It highlights both well-known destinations and quieter alternatives where you can explore without the crowds. Start a sustaining gift today at $15 a month or make a one-time gift of $180 just to receive your copy of this great book.
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If $15 a month or a one-time gift of $180 works for you. Get your very own copy of "Public Land, 1,000 Western Wonders". So in the opening of your book, you encourage people to sit in on public discussions about national parks. What kind of issues are addressed in these public discussions, and how do you find one to sit on?
Oswald: Um, so you'd go to the park websites or there's social media feeds that they'll usually list when they're going to be discussing certain issues. And, uh, I mean, the issues, the, issues are all over the place.
It's from like protecting species to campground management to just visit like timed entry passes were, uh brought in during the, um, pandemic just to relieve crowds and to make it easier to enter the park kind of, I mentioned those long lines that entrances that nobody wants to sit in. And so it can, makes you breathe breeze right into the park.
But it also created another problem later, like trailhead's parking spots would fill up. And so you're getting into the park and you're just driving through because you can't find a parking spot anywhere. So it just propagates the problem.
And it also create like this year at Glacier National Park, they're having, you can only park at Logan Pass for three hours. And it's popular trailhead for taking a pretty long, long trek, so you have to take a hyper shuttle.
It's smart, like they should probably do that because a lot of people want to get up there, but the parking lot would fill sometimes before the sun would come up. And so it's like- And people would be gone all day. Yeah, and people are like, they're spending a lot money to go there.
And then they want to see these things and they just literally can't because they can't find a parking spot. And I understand the push against making parking lots larger. Like that kind of seems to be the solution to a lot these places. But that seems anti-
Juravich: But that seems anti-park, yeah.
Oswald: It's the anti conservation anti nature anti everything and it's and like that's kind of my solution is show people more because there's just so Much land but that'll make people upset too because then you have more people at other places where they don't want more people.
It's it's a profit propagates propagates issues. But uh, but yeah, so there there are lots of issues that are brought up. I had a funny one that I sat in for Isle Royale where they're trying to discuss the wolves and moose on the island and one guy in the crowd. He just goes get rid of all of them and bring in like two other species that are never there.
And I'm like, what in the world? Get rid of them. Yeah, get rid all the wolves in the moose and bring. I forgot what species he wanted. And then he's like, let us hunt them. And I was like, this isn't like your little wish list.
I guess it is your wish list, so if yeah, if you if you want parks to do things differently, because I do know there are a lot of people who have just bad experiences in the parks and less than ideal. And that's when like. It propagates other bad things like people litter, people vandalize.
Like I don't think most people do that like fully intentionally. Like I'm gonna go to this beautiful place and do something stupid. Like I normally think it's a byproduct of just not having the time that they thought they would have.
Juravich: Did you give away, I mean, in your 1,000 Western wonders, you're trying to have people avoid the crowd, so you're showing them some like off the beaten path places. Did you get any feedback yet where someone was like, you gave away my secret spot.
Oswald: I'm gonna make some enemies. I was talking, yeah, I did a podcast interview with the national parks traveler, Kurt, and he's just like, yeah. Pretty much got them all. And you could see, I'm pretty sure I didn't get them all because there's 390 million acres, but there are a lot of spots that are.
And I do, I am a little conflicted about that, but I spent a whole month thinking about whether what I'm doing is right or wrong. And than to appease a small minority of the outside insiders. I think the public deserves to know about their public. I end the book with, if you didn't know, now you know. Which is just like.
Juravich: But keep it a secret right you should you should add that like shh don't tell anyone if you buy the book then you know
Oswald: We live in a time now where if too many people go to these places, we do have technological solutions to them. There are no secrets. You can see how people managed them before.
They start, they name something the same name as the place that they wanted to protect, not far away, and then send people there. They do all their little things, just kind of games, and I'm like, I get it. Like, you don't want...
Juravich: All you need is a reddit forum now and it'll explain it away for you, right?
Oswald: Yeah, but I the internet has ways of scrubbing things to that there are there are a lot of places that you don't find
Juravich: Now, in this book, the pictures are gorgeous. Did you take most of them yourself? I was like, I mean, they're beautiful pictures.
Oswald: I did. Yeah. That's part of the reason why I kind of upgraded to a coffee table book. My photography is pretty decent now and I'm still unfortunately not the type of person that waits around for like that perfect light but every once in a while I am there in the right place at the right time and get some pretty good photos.
I kind wish I could slow down and kind of enjoy it more but I probably never will do that. There's too much to see and too much to do.
Juravich: We should describe for our radio audience. It is a coffee table book. It's a big book. I mean, you know, bigger than a phone book for people who remember what a phonebook is, you now? And I mean just gorgeous, beautiful pictures. What is the picture on the cover?
Oswald: That is Parker Lake in Inyo National Forest. So that's one that people will be mad at me for. You gave it away on the cover. It's only a couple miles. Pretty easy hike. Nothing tricky. And the whole Eastern Sierra is people who won't like me saying just that. The Eastern Sierra's amazing.
Juravich: So listeners, if you go to our website, when you make your gift at wosu.org, there's a picture of the book, so you can see the picture we're talking about that's on the cover. But I mean, absolutely gorgeous. It's, I mean it's like the perfect reflection in the, is it a lake? I don't, yeah.
Oswald: Yeah, Parker Lake. Yeah, it's a great book. If you're an armchair traveler, veteran, road tripper, you'll learn a whole lot about our country just by going through there.
I put a bunch of stats in, like the percentage of state land, percentage of federal land, and then broken it down by the different agencies. And it was very eye-opening to me, and I thought I knew a lot about public land.
And once I was going around, there's so many places that... When I was just looking at a map while I was in one place, I'm like, well, maybe I should go check that out too. And just all sorts of happy accidents one after another.
Juravich: I just randomly opened the book to page 188 and I came to this gorgeous picture of Lake Powell. Tell me about that. Where is it? Why is it so beautiful?
Oswald: Oh my gosh. That's another place you won't be thrilled about. That one actually, Nat Geo shared that picture quite a while ago, so it's not like it's out there. But that's Hole in the Rock Road.
You go through Grand Staircase, Escalante National Monument, which is probably the premier BL Bureau of Land Management site. And you end up in Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, which is actually managed by the National Park Service.
And it's maybe a 16-mile hike to that viewpoint and that said like extremely low water level, is what they say, and I'm not sure what the truth is and all those things.
Juravich: You took the picture at a low-level time?
Oswald: It was a low-level time. So so I was imagining it at like twice the fill like that's a serious problem for boaters like you have no idea what you're going through like it seems like a Boat wreck waiting to happen because boaters do go through there.
But uh, yeah, this is extremely be it's they started goose necks in the in the river and that's the the Colorado River dammed up just upstream of the Grand Canyon
Juravich: You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. This is our membership drive. We're talking with travel writer Mike Oswald, who is also a brilliant photographer, and we're talking about his brand new book, "Public Land, 1000 Western Wonders".
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