This episode originally aired on March 30, 2026.
Ohio and Ohioans star in Season 10 of “Love is Blind."
We’ll talk with Ohio State professor and reality TV star Victor St. John, who made a splash and gained a wife during his time in the limelight.
This hour, we’re exploring the enduring and growing popularity of reality TV.
Guests:
- Victor St. John, Ohio State professor/star of season 10 of "Love is Blind" reality TV series
- Kim Akass, professor of television studies/independent scholar
- Bobbi Miller, pop culture critic and host, Culture Kitsch
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Reality TV shows, especially ones about love, are growing in popularity. Ohio just had its reality TV moment. The newest season of "Love is Blind" featuring contestants from Columbus, Cleveland, and Cincinnati.
The show wrapped up recently and one of the finalists was a professor from Ohio State University. Professor Victor St. John from the John Glenn College of Public Affairs. He left the show as one of the only married couples and he joins us today. Welcome to All Sides Vic.
Victor St. John: All right, hello, hello. I'm super happy to be on All Sides today.
Juravich: Thanks for coming in. So first of all, how does it feel that Columbus was featured in this very popular reality show? I mean, whenever you watched it back, were you like, oh wow, that's my Columbus. What did you think?
St. John: I thought it was pretty cool, like just to show what Columbus is about, at least the pride, what we have to offer, the different areas that exist. We kind of have a lot of different cultural elements that people don't know about and I call it a hidden gem. So I think Columbus is really representative of just the country as a whole. So for it to be based there or here specifically, it was pretty amazing.
Juravich: How did it feel to be filming parts of the show, you know, downtown in the short north? I mean, did people like recognize you or not at the time? I guess maybe not in the filming time, but like, were people like attracted, like what's going on? What's happening over there?
St. John: So those moments did happen more so because there are certain staple items known about the show whether it's like the golden cup Right and people see that filming or if they see film crews then it's kind of eyes on like what's happening here Yeah, but folks were pretty respectful just kind of doing their thing. So it was it felt kind of normal but weird at the same time
Juravich: Normal and weird. Yeah, I think that's reality TV in a nutshell. Normal and weird. So of all the ways to find love in the world, you know, why did you choose "Love is Blind"?
St. John: Oh, man, that's a really good one. I think it's interesting because I am kind of risk-averse and I'm very much more introverted, but I think just the way that my day-to-day was set up, being a professor, there's a lot that's unseen that goes into just kind of the labor behind the scenes with teaching and prepping and research and mentoring and service and all nine, that I was kind of a workaholic where the traditional ways of meeting people don't work.
And then also in the workplace, I keep kind of thick firewalls up, so it's not like I'm. Gonna look for a potential partner at work either. So it left very few options available and a friend told me, hey, this show's coming to town, just take a look, I know what your love life looks like. I looked at the questionnaire, I said nah. But then I went back to it, I read the questions and they were pretty thought provoking and it kind of hit that academic introspective side of myself just answering the questions and before you knew it, I hit submit.
Juravich: Oh, was that, was it kind of an accident? You were like, oh, suddenly I want to do this? Oh no, not an accident, not a accident. Yeah, okay. So did you try, you know, like the dating apps or go into the bar, like that kind of thing? And then you thought, oh reality TV, that makes sense.
St. John: Yeah, yeah, so that's a good question. So I've tried the dating apps, but I don't think that's the best fit for me because dating apps are a little bit more superficial where you have to see the person and you're just swiping through all these different options or vice versa, what they're doing to you.
And I think people could look at me on the exterior and just have whatever perception they think I am or who I should be when they meet me in public and I could probably go left. And then also just, I think their personality. When you meet me off the rip, I don't think I'm a very energetic, super in-your-face person, I'm pretty just calm. I would describe myself sometimes just normal, boring, easy-going, and I don't think that's a hit for kind of texting through dating apps and things like that. So that was a no-go, plus the bar scene, I'm not really into bars like that, so again, that just limits your opportunities.
Juravich: Did you actually truly expect to fall in love on the show though, or did you think you were just going to have some fun maybe?
St. John: So I didn't think fun was gonna happen. I was like nervous in that sense. So I don't think like, well, this is about to be a fun time. I think I went in there like, hey, I'm gonna put my heart on the table and I think something good is gonna come out of this.
Partly because when I got the call and before I made the actual decision to say yes, right? Not just apply, but say yes when they say, hey, we want you to come. I prayed over the decision and I got very clear kind of assignment saying, yeah, go into it, you're protected and what's gonna come from it is gonna be net benefit somehow.
Juravich: So it's not a spoiler alert because everyone knows you found a wife on the show Your and your wife Christine she is from Cleveland, right? So would you you would have never crossed paths had it not been for this show
St. John: Yeah, we would've never crossed paths, because she also has family out in Cincinnati, Cleveland, all of that, but she was never in Columbus. We would've never overlapped in that way. So it was very much nothing short of a blessing that we met each other in the pods, that the way we did, the way connected when we first met and had those conversations, like it was the level of, same level of calmness, reservedness, maturity, humor, depth, lightness. It was just. It was a refreshing conversation and a connection that I can't really describe.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the ups and downs of reality TV this hour. And right now we're talking with Ohio State University professor and "Love is Blind" contestant, Victor St. John. So the show aired practically a whole year after it was filmed. Did you have to hide the fact that you were married so you didn't ruin the ending of the show?
St. John: Yeah. Yeah. So we had to kind of keep it on the low for the most part. So close friends knew and some colleagues knew like I would wear my ring and things like that.
Juravich: You were allowed to wear a ring? That's what I was wondering, yeah.
St. John: So it's kind of the so-so, right? So you're not gonna take photos and have your ring out or you all together and things like that. So only people in our close circle and close colleagues really knew that I was a married man and she was a marriage woman, but no one else knew what was going on. You kinda had to keep it on the low.
Juravich: Yeah. So as, but then as the show became a reality and you were in all of the promos and they were, and they kind of realized like, Oh, you are on this show. Then I'm sure people were like looking at your hand being like, what is he wearing a ring?
St. John: Oh, no rings at that point. Christine was using like one door, I was using another door, we're driving separately to places, cutting out on dates together in the public.
Juravich: During when the show was like airing one week at a time, right? Yeah, okay And then you could start talking about stuff after a particular episode aired. Is that right? Exactly. So Being a professor though. I mean you're in front of I'm guessing a room full of like 19 and 20 year olds on the regular Right did how did they react as they as the promo came out to show that you were gonna be on the show I mean, what is it like being on reality TV and Becoming face to face with a roomful of 20 year old all the time
St. John: That's funny, that's funny. Because I got the gamut, too. I have 18-year-olds all the way to graduate students, too, so some of them are my age. So some of are grownups, yeah. But interestingly enough, folks were pretty chill, excited at the front. They're like, whoa, that my professor.
I think I had one student who raised his hand, and he said, hey, I saw you on my For You page. Are we going to talk about that? This is in the middle of class. And I'm like, wait, this is class time? So I'll only take 30 seconds to address this. And I was like, yes, such and such. And then we went back to talking about policy. But folks kind of mellowed out over the semester because I think they're like, yeah, we know him. It's just, you know, Vic, so.
Juravich: Okay. All right. Well, you found love and made a commitment pretty early on in the show. But for others, with this 10 years of the show, it's really difficult. What do you think was different about the way you and Christine Hamilton, your wife, approached the show as opposed to the other contestants?
St. John: Yeah, I think the way it's set up, right, it's a social experiment where you don't know what the person looks like as you're getting to know them and you make a decision whether or not you wanna be engaged and then you meet them, meet their family, their friends, you make the decision to get married or not.
And I think for me and Christine, we really came in with understanding that it did not matter what that person looked like. And I this season as it plays out and unfolds and as I was watching, I think that was one of one factor of many factors different people may not have made it to the end or decided to kind of part ways. It's like, hey, you're not the typical physical type and all these other things. And that's something I think Christine wanted to get away from, and I wanted to get away from too, which the social experiment allowed for,
Juravich: In past reality TV shows, there's instances where fans will try to dig up dirt on participants. You know, once the cast list is revealed, they start like going through their social media. Did you have to do any sort of background check or did you go through your like 10 year history on Instagram just to see what was on there? Yeah.
St. John: Oh no, so I didn't have to do any personal background check or anything like that.
Juravich: What about the show? Did they do a background check on you?
St. John: Yeah, they screen us.
Juravich: Okay, were you worried at all that someone was gonna like try to dig something up on you?
St. John: Not too much, I mean, I'm an imperfect person, so I'm sure there are people who probably don't like me or have, I don't know, but nothing that I wouldn't be.
Juravich: Well, if it was going to come out, it would have come out by now, I guess. That too. That too, yeah. Well, ever since the show aired, you've gained a lot more followers. You've been more active on social media. Were you intending to leave the show with a new platform? Were you hoping to be famous and in love?
St. John: Not at all, not at all. It's funny, I was hoping to find love and that be it. And then just the, I didn't expect one, the magnitude of following to be what it is today or what that means, what comes with it with what you post or what you say. And I don't think the growth of that digital community is by accident.
So I found myself now in a place of like, what do I do here? How do I steward this community in some sort of a good way where folks can get to know me better, know myself and my wife better. In. Try to set some goodness in this world in some sort of way. So I think that's the space we're in now in terms of kind of the social media following, figuring that out. I think we have some plans for our anniversary where we'll do something big for the digital community as well, but it's like a separate life.
Juravich: Well, but you can you cross them over a little bit. I saw a post you did on Instagram where, you know, because you have hundreds of thousands of followers now and you were trying to explain cost benefit analysis to them because you had just taught that. Right. So are you were like, you were like, let's take a moment to educate the public.
St. John: Yeah, I mean, it's part of my day-to-day. And I guess that firewall is coming down, right, in terms of profession and personal life. I'm like, yeah, let's give you a little insight of what happens in the classroom. And maybe folks might sign up coming to the classroom, it's a cool experience.
Juravich: Yeah, you're like, they're like let's talk public policy. Let's get a degree here.
St. John: Yeah, for real.
Juravich: So across social media, you on the show were regarded as one of the least dramatic, most respectful men in the group. You were considered a green flag contestant. Did you notice that while you were interacting with others on the show that maybe your motives, your values were a little different than some of your fellow contestants.
St. John: Um, that's a real good one. I think I noticed in my interaction with like other folks, I think we have shared values. I think everyone does want kind of the family and health and all those different things. I think maybe it's just more so how we show up when we interact with each other is that we may differ on our understandings in some way. So yeah, I don't, I don't really know how to explain other, other folks kind of dynamics, but I do know mine and minus.
Tends to be more on the reserved side, just in general. For a lot of reasons, why I'm like that. I grew up with four sisters, my mother and so forth. My faith, my spiritual background teaches me to be kind to others, respectful, like considerate, love you like my neighbor, right? So that's how I move in life, where I try to move, right, I'm imperfect, so there's times I get frustrated and angry, but for the most part, that's my default.
Juravich: Did the producers talk to you and try to make you more dramatic for reality TV purposes?
St. John: Nah, I don't think so. I think the producers were pretty chill, like they were all, yeah, they were down to earth folks too. But nothing, I never felt like, I dunno, like pressured or pulled in any direction. I was just being myself.
Juravich: The host of the show, Nick Lachey, called you and Christine nauseatingly perfect. Do you take that as a compliment? He did, in like the, what do you call it, whenever you all get together at the end? Oh, the reunion? The reunion, yes. I couldn't think of the word reunion. In the reunion, he called you nauseating perfect. Yeah, do you take it as a complement?
St. John: I'll take it as a compliment, but I gotta add a caveat that I am not perfect. If you ask me, I feel like I'm a regular guy, a regular person, and I do have my imperfections. Again, I get impatient and the whole nine, but yeah, I'll it as compliment though.
Juravich: I mean, compared to a lot of other reality TV couples, maybe you are on the perfect end.
St. John: I'll receive that.
Juravich: All right. There is one scene where you and Christine talk, and the scene went viral. You and Christine talked about what it would be like someday to raise biracial children. And it was probably one of the most healthy, grounded conversations I have ever seen in reality TV, the way you two talked. I mean did the producer stick you in a park and just tell you to talk about that?
St. John: No, no, they didn't, they did it. So we had a date, a walk in the park where we got to kind of see the different, I don't know, the artistry, because like the bushes were cut a certain way and we could talk about just life moving forward, what does it look like for us to be in Columbus and like future forward vision.
And it looks like they took the clip where in our discussion, it was a much larger discussion where we spoke about children, if that were a path we went down, what it would look like. And I think it goes back, without. Regardless of the level of kindness or whatever we pour into our child, you know, if that happens, is they still have to enter this world. And this world is gonna be full of experiences that are not like what the home is.
So I think it's important for us to be able to have conversations about how we may or may not be able to show up for our children, potentially in the future forward looking, when they have to encounter the world, right? And the world has things where there are people who are just really like angry. Or in pain and that comes out on you or racist or whatever the aspect is. So it's like, all right, we need to talk about that.
Juravich: You really grounded a part of "Love is Blind". You're different than a lot of other reality TV contestants. Do you feel, I mean, you also didn't get as much airtime as some of the other contestants, and that's probably because you can have this nice, healthy, adult-grounded conversation instead of being dramatic. Did you care that you, whenever you watched it, were you like, oh, that's okay?
St. John: Yeah, I was like, it's cool. It's cool, yeah. The screen time, again, I wasn't really there for the screen time. So if it was too little, that's totally fine, plus.
Juravich: Okay, well, you've done a lot of interviews about the show, but once all the publicity wears off, what's next for you and Christine? Do you guys want to be influencers? Do you want to keep up with the publicity?
St. John: So I think next, one of the big things is, one, enjoying kind of our newlywed life. Our anniversary is coming up on April 9th. So just being able to celebrate the past year together and like our vision forward for this upcoming year is one priority. The second priority is definitely our careers, right? So she's a medical SLP and she really cares about her patients and there's so much value.
Juravich: Speech language pathologist. I'm sorry. I gotta I gotta say what the letters mean. Yeah. Oh, yeah Yeah, there we go people like
St. John: Oh yeah, so she helps people regain their voice, essentially, who are sometimes very critical care, dementia, patients, the whole nine, which is super cool to see and hear about when she comes home. And in my career, I'm very passionate about it too, public policy and kind of bringing up the next decision makers and leaders of tomorrow to push the world forward. I'm really passionate about that too.
So that's second. And then third, I would say Yeah, maybe we'll share more with the digital community in terms of what we're learning. I don't think it's a mistake we landed on people's TVs or we've had the outpouring of love and support we've received so far, and we wanna pour back and give back, and maybe that might be through some more experiences that we share together.
Juravich: Do you plan on continuing teaching at Ohio State?
St. John: Yeah, for sure.
Juravich: And what's your research focus? Because you have your PhD, right? Yeah, what's you research focus.
St. John: So my umbrella area is criminal justice policy. So a lot of the work I'm doing right now is in the correction space and I'm focusing on fatalities and just the health and wellbeing of people who are in correctional care. So we're talking about suicide, it could be homicide, it can be drug addiction issues, things like that happening within our jails and our prisons because that spills back into the community, there's a cyclical effect.
So right now myself and some colleagues, like Dr. Tasher Purdue and Crystal Tosone, we're doing some work to figure out the best interventions that can be done to just support the health and well-being of folks in our community.
Juravich: Well, we're public radio, so I'm sure you haven't been asked that question before whenever people want to interview Well, "Love is Blind", but since we are public radio I'll invite you back to talk about your research whenever you have when you have something published and we don't have to talk About reality TV then maybe. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming in today. We've been talking with Victor St. John from "Love is Blind" season 10. He's from right here in Columbus. He's an Ohio State professor. Thanks for joining us.
St. John: Thanks for having me.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk about the ups and downs of reality TV. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Of all adults that watch TV, about 80% watch reality TV shows. From "Survivor" to "Love Island" to "The Bachelor", the drama-filled shows are consistently topping the charts. Ohio just had its moment with the newest "Love is Blind" season, which was filmed here in Columbus.
We're exploring the rise of reality TV and the cultural effects of these shows. Joining us now is Kim Akass. A professor of television studies and an independent scholar. She's the co-editor of "Reading Television Series" and has published widely on American television, feminism and motherhood. Welcome to All Sides Kim.
Kim Akass: I mean, nice. Thanks for having me.
Juravich: Nice to see you and also joining us is Bobbi Miller pop culture critic writer and host of "Culture Kitsch", which is on YouTube Welcome to All Sides Bobbi.
Bobbi Miller: I Thank you for having me.
Juravich: So I guess I wanted before we get into reality TV I wanted to talk because you both were just listening in with me talking with Victor St. John from "Love is Blind" and I think you probably got the vibe that I got that he is pretty non dramatic, I would say maybe boring compared to a lot of other reality TV contestants. I mean, Bobbi, what do you make of the idea of having kind of like a down to earth kind of guy be on reality TV like that and not be all dramatic and causing issues on the show?
Miller: Think it's very rare nowadays but it's honestly like an archetype of person that appears on reality tv that we've seen since the beginning of the kind of like sector of television there's always like one person who sometimes can serve as the audience proxy who feels like they're the only one who is sane in whatever social experiment the show calls for so it's a very refreshing thing to see, especially with how uh, out there, some contestants can get on any given show, but it's also something that I think does have like precedent.
Juravich: Yeah, Kim, what do you think? I feel like it's been, the editing of "Love is Blind" with him on definitely was true to him. I think that he wasn't in the show that much because he and his wife were not dramatic and they actually fell in love. And what do make of that actually happening on reality TV?
Akass: That was a really interesting question. I noticed that he wasn't in Mexico. That was the really glaring thing that him and Christine didn't seem to be in Mexico, I don't know if they went and they were just too boring to put on TV, who knows?
I think the thing is with reality TV in the first season or second season, you'll see that people are much more themselves and much calmer. Because they really don't know what's happening. And I'm thinking back of the first season of "Big Brother", for example, over here. And everyone was really shocked. And then as the seasons continue and people get more and more used to it, the contestants themselves know what the company wants and what the TV series wants.
And so they start to act more. And so you get people like, I don't know, Jade Goody, for example, really played up to the cameras and it all ended up really badly for her. So I think it's really refreshing. I really, really enjoyed seeing him in the show, on the show and that calm presence that just took you through the whole thing and thought, well, there really is a reason to be saying "Love is Blind" and can this work? And I think they proved that the experiment really can work. And it doesn't need to be a big performance and a drama.
Juravich: Bobbi, there was a recent article in the New York Times that spoke about how a lot of these shows are actually getting canceled now. Do you think we're nearing the fall of reality TV? There was a rise. I mean, there is an increase in the shows, you know, in COVID and post-COVID when people were home and watching a lot shows. Did we make too many of them? And now we need to like, you know reduce the number of reality TV shows?
Miller: I do think that that. Definitely is where we're trending. And I think it's because of things like social media, you can go online and watch a 60 part series on TikTok that gives you the same like salacious dopamine hit that a good reality TV show can get, but without the hassle of TV that some people may experience.
So I think the genre will just adapt and it may move as a more like social forward. Area of TV. It's the weird thing that happens with new media and traditional media where there's kind of a crossroads to be met. And I definitely think that they may be moving in the direction of like less shows, maybe more social forward initiatives within those shows. But we'll definitely see a transformation that'll happen, but it'll mean less shows for sure.
Juravich: And Kim, most reality TV shows have some sort of competition aspect to them. Is there a difference between reality TV where people are looking for love, like "Love is Blind" and "The Bachelor", versus reality TV competition shows that are like "Survivor" or "The Amazing Race"? Do you consider both reality TV?
Akass: Um, I, I do actually, I mean, again, another really good question, because there seems to be these gradations between what it's a game show, but actually when you look at it, reality TV, the way it is, it's, they're all game shows, you know, so whether there's a prize at the end or not, or whether it's marriage or whether it is you know to win the best cake or whatever it is there's always an element of competition and that's what keeps the audience really tuned into them, because if you get hooked into it.
And I say this, having watched the whole of the final season of "Love is Blind" this weekend, you tend to really just get gripped. And I wasn't just doing it in preparation for the show either. I mean, I thought I'll watch one or two and then I'll go on to other ones. But actually, I mean they're gripping. You know, the editing is so good. They end at like a real cliffhanger. And so there's always an element of competition. There's always something that will bring you back.
I just want to pick up on something that Bobbi said, and I think you're absolutely right. I mean, there is this idea that many shows are now going on to YouTube. But I think, you've got to look at the ages of the audience. And certainly, for the older viewer, we don't tend to watch YouTube the way younger audiences do.
So I think what we're going to find is there's going to be a split. So you'll get the really established formats like "MasterChef", like... Whatever you call it in America, the baking show, the "Great British Bake Off", they will stay on the main channels, I think, because they are more for the older audience. And then the younger audience will go to YouTube for "Love Island", "Love is Blind", "Naked Attraction", things like that. And you'll find that the audience starts to split. And that's just my personal opinion.
Juravich: Yeah, Bobbi, do you agree with that? That there is a split in the audience of who's, because there is certain audience that will watch a reality something or other on TikTok and then there's a whole group of people who will not.
Miller: Absolutely. I mean, like reality TV has become like appointment television kind of replacing maybe where the TGIF for, you know, like must see TV lineup was. So it will remain in kind of that routine for a certain demographic of people. So absolutely agree.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about reality TV with professor of television studies and independent scholar, Kim Akass, and Bobbi Miller, pop culture, critic, writer, and host of "Culture Kitsch" on YouTube. Bobbi, what about shows like on HGTV and TLC, the channels, they have a less competition base to them. There's like "Say Yes to the Dress", "Property Brothers", "My Strange Addiction". Um, those shows may be... I mean, they're still around. Maybe they're not talked about as much anymore. Why do you think that is? Do you think people are still watching those HGTV type shows?
Miller: I do think they are. It kind of just maybe comes out of like force of habit at a certain point. I feel just like I see those shows a lot on at like, you know, dentist office or different things like that. Like just places where they're mostly unoffensive, pretty like quiet shows. They don't require a lot of your attention. They can just exist.
And also those shows like do so many episodes in one season. So like in syndication, they can kind of just be the background noise. And so I think that's like, they're very much so a comfort for people. Like people will say like, oh, I love, you know, "Love It or List It" and that's my favorite show. And they've seen every episode and it doesn't require much input from you.
And I think, especially when we're all kind of being asked a lot by the screens that we have, whether it be our phones, television screens, movie screens, programming like that is kind of essential because it's just like, it asks nothing of you. And gives everything of itself. And I think people really can enjoy that.
Juravich: Yeah, Kim, what do you think of those shows that are more benign, less offensive, being a background kind of show?
Akass: I just think there's no, there's nothing wrong with the background kind of show. I love them. And I think that there is a difference between, I mean, in television studies, we talk about engaged viewing where you're watching something like "The Sopranos" or, you know, something that really needs you to pay attention to the narrative. And then there's comfort viewing, which is when you think, I just, I can't, and I'll just put up something like a show like that.
And I noticed, you know, when you're in the doctors or in the dentists or in hospitals, those shows are always on and they're fascinating, you know because it demands nothing of you. You can just watch a makeover show or, you know we've got shows over here, like "Location, Location, Location", "Love It or List It" and that kind of thing. The home makeover shows. They're excellent. I love them. And I think there'll always be room for those.
I just think that there's all these different gradations of reality TV, "Real Housewives" franchise. I can watch that back to back all day. It doesn't matter where it's set. It demands nothing of me. And that kind of goes back to the different styles of watching TV.
Juravich: Kim, what do you make of the trend that seems like there's more and more shows about love? Is that an accurate read or is everyone trying to fall in love on TV now?
Akass: I mean, that's a really good question. I don't know. I mean I go back to "Blind Date". We used to have "Blind Date" in Britain. It was a Saturday evening show with Cilla Black. You know, everybody loved her. And it was the same kind of format where you couldn't see whoever it was on the other side. And then, you know, what's going to happen when they get together and then the show would follow that date.
So it's got quite a long heritage on TV. I think it is harder. I mean, speaking of somebody who's been married for like 30 years, and what I hear from my daughter's friends, it's very hard to meet people nowadays. And you know, what Vic was saying about the Tinder swiping, and I've got no experience of it, but I know people that have.
So, you know why not? I mean I just think "Love is Blind" really does serve a purpose because it had them talking about what marriage means. What it's like to be together you know and that lovely I saw that conversation about bringing up a biracial child it's so important to have that kind of conversation because that's the kind of thing that you don't hear just in day-to-day life so I don't know if there's more I think they've always been there but I think they do more nowadays and certainly "Love is Blind" addresses lots of issues that people should be thinking about if they're thinking of marrying someone.
Juravich: Yeah, Bobbi, what do you make of dating shows? Why do they keep us so entertained?
Miller: I mean, I think it is the gamified aspect of it where you have a whole host of people. You're trying to see how everyone's going to mesh or clash with each other. And I think it's the thing of you may have a interesting dating life yourself. So getting to see someone else's play out over a course of weeks makes for a really interesting story.
But I think too, it's also a little bit aspirational, right? Like getting matched by producers or just like. Fate that is television and seeing it work out can be really inspiring and, you know, it can fill you with joy and make you feel like you're there. And I think that's what people really love about these shows.
They either love the train wreck or they love when it works out and it's a fairy tale. Um, and whether those relationships are actually all one thing or another, it doesn't really matter because it's the story that people are watching unfold over weeks. And then maybe at the reunion, they may have the burst. But... When you're in the confines of the season, it's whatever story is being told via the editing or whatever it is. And I just, I don't know, I think people just, it may be a good proxy for their own lives if they don't have very exciting dating lives, you can see it play out with a random stranger from Ohio.
Juravich: Kim, earlier you mentioned "Real Housewives" being just like TV candy that you can have on in the background, but there's like real conflict that happens. A lot drama comes up in a show like that. Are there any negative consequences to a show, like "Real Housewives" or "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" becoming so popular, you know, just for the average human psyche?
Akass: Now, I mean, yeah, there's going to be damage for some people, you know, of course. And I mean the "Real Housewives" franchises, it just feels like, you know, they've ply them with alcohol and then just, you know, set them off to have these huge rows. Um, I just want to go back though, to "Love is Blind".
And again, just to pick up something Bobbi was saying, I'm so emotionally engaged in the show. I actually did cry a couple of points. It really made me, it was very emotional. And then the other thing I found myself doing was like shouting at the TV, don't marry him. And then feeling like when they didn't marry him, I was like, oh, what a relief. It was, so it's really emotionally engaging, but I think the "Real Housewives" franchise, for example, isn't. I don't find myself emotionally engaged in that. I just think it's like, it is a train wreck. You're just waiting for the next argument to happen or who's going to fall out with who. So these are, as I say, it's different gradations. They're both reality, but we know it's all scripted in a way, anyway. It's all told in the editing. It's not actually reality TV, is it? And it's just, whether it's sweet and nice, which I think "Love is Blind" is despite the reunion when everybody turns on each other. And the "Real Housewives" franchise is, they're very different animals.
Juravich: Bobbi, what do you think of the manufactured editing and production, the manufactured drama, versus real-life storytelling? Because I think we saw both in "Love is Blind" as an example. I think some of it was maybe a little manufactured, or the way it was edited to make it even more dramatic than it was. But some of has it happened.
Miller: Yeah. I mean, like to go back to something we talked about earlier, like these shows run on maybe a little bit of manufactured storytelling and alcohol. And then you just kind of see what happens from that. It does make reality TV function in this really interesting space to where it's like, on one hand, it is like real and it's just depicting things. You just set up a camera and let people go.
But there are also is this like narrative where you have the producers. Pinpointing, okay, this person will be down for this, this person wouldn't be down for that, let's put them in this situation. And so they are in turn, like creating a narrative, you know, it's might not have a script, but it does function in a similar way. And so it kind of transitions the whole show into like a different area and it makes it really interesting.
And I think some viewers do feel betrayed by it when like, I think a show like "Real Housewives" has gotten very inside baseball where the producers on the show have talked about. Yeah, we knew that we could put you two in this situation and this thing would happen. And I think some people feel like they might've wasted time watching it, but there still is a story being told. It may not be all the intimate details of that person's life or the situation that is being talked about, but there is a storytelling and you were entertained. So there's a real, I think toss up that tends to happen with those things.
Juravich: Listen, listeners, we'd love to hear from you. Have you become swept up in reality TV? Has reality TV changed the way you consume media? You can give us a call 614-292-8513 or email us at allsides at www.osu.org. Coming up, we're gonna talk about some of the cultural effects of reality TV. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Ohio just had its reality TV moment. The newest season of "Love is Blind" featured contestants from Columbus, Cleveland, and Cincinnati. The show wrapped up recently with one of the finalists being an Ohio State professor who left the show with a wife. And he was known on the show for being stable, grounded, and not dramatic at all.
Reality TV has become increasingly popular. The real people, relationships, and social dynamics matched with dramatic editing to keep us on the edge of our seats. And with the age of social media, the show doesn't end with the finale. The participants leave the show as influencers with millions of followers continuing to share their story. Still with us to talk about reality TV and its cultural impacts is Kim Akass, a professor of television studies and an independent scholar. She's also the co-editor of the "Reading Television Series". And is published widely on American television, feminism, and motherhood. Thanks for being here, Kim.
Akass: Okay, thanks for having me.
Juravich: And also with us is Bobbi Miller, pop culture critic, writer, and host of "Culture Kitsch" on YouTube. Thanks for being here, Bobbi.
Miller: Thank you for having me.
Juravich: And listeners, if you wanna join us and tell us about reality TV shows, do you still keep up with reality TV show participants or how has reality TV impacted you? 614-292-8513 or email us at allsidesatosu.org. So reality TV has been around for decades, but it feels more dominant now than ever. And I think social media is a part of that reason because as people have a stronger social media presence, there's also more controversies.
In the last "Love Island" season, we actually saw someone get kicked off of the show for racism found in their old social media posts and several other claims have been made about other contestants. Kim, what do you make of, you know, people whenever they go on reality TV and then the public kind of like digs into their past and find stuff about them?
Akass: I've been talking a lot about this at the weekend, kind of preparing for this show. I think it's really sad, but I think its inevitable. You know, if you go on TV, you know that people are going to be digging any dirt they can. Which is one of the reasons I think Vic was so brave to do it because, you know, is you're putting yourself out there.
Um, I don't think it's fair. And I think, you, I'm sure everybody has said things in the past that you would not agree with now, you know, things I thought when I was 16, I certainly don't think now. Um. Luckily we didn't have social media in our day. Um I think it's something that I try to tell both of my children, don't put things on Facebook back in the day or Instagram that you don't want anybody to see because if you're going for a job, people will dig it up and people will use it against you.
So I think when you go on to reality TV, it's going to be inevitable that social media kind of breeds this nastiness, if you like. I mean, I don't like social media at all, but then I'm an old person. I don't need to. Engage with it like I used to. But I think it's inevitable. And I'm just thinking of "The Bachelorette", the whole fuss about that. That was, it's just inevitable, isn't it? It's gonna get out, people are gonna see it. And then a whole season of a show has been canceled because of this behavior. Whereas 30 years ago, it wouldn't have been out there because nobody would have filmed it. But I'm think it is inevitable nowadays.
Juravich: Well, Bobbi, let's talk about that. So ABC just canceled the upcoming 22nd season of "The Bachelorette" due to leaked video. The video was from 2023 showing the star, Taylor Frankie Paul, uh, from "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" attacking her boyfriend. Um, do you think ABC handled this correctly or were you, were you shocked that they filmed the whole thing and then canceled it?
Miller: I am, I think with ABC being a Disney subsidiary and how Disney is very careful and calculated with any of their programming, but especially anything tied to the brand, it feels a bit off. I think that this was something that maybe they didn't see coming down the pipeline, but also to, I, think the choice of casting someone outside of Bachelor Nation was also a bit. Of a departure for them as well. I know that the community of "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette" is a very insular space.
And so bringing in someone else from another kind of sector of the reality TV world was already a big risk. And it is very interesting at how everything played out and now they have to cancel a whole season, which again, like I said, like reality TV, especially on ABC is like appointment viewing. And so now there's this really big. Gap in their programming. And they have to contend with that. And I think that that's something that we that's a position we don't often see Disney in, which is very fascinating.
Juravich: Well, and Kim, we knew Taylor Frankie Paul and her boyfriend, Dakota Mortenson, were problematic before ABC even selected her to be the bachelorette. So they kind of set themselves up for this. Wouldn't you say, um, ABC, you know, I don't know if they made an error, but they set themselves up for, they wanted, I guess they wanted a, um dramatic season. And then, and then they got it and had to cancel it.
Akass: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really unfortunate that there's been so much about, you know, "60 Minutes" being canceled, people losing their jobs because of what they've said in America, you know. The current political climate is so nervy at the moment. And I think that's kind of fed into ABC and the Disney company's decision to do that.
And I think you're absolutely right. I think they were thinking, oh, let's bring some drama in. Let's get, you know, people watching the series. And then when the video was leaked, they're in a really difficult position because they are facing, well, they could be sued, they could canceled. You know, it's happened before in American TV. It's kind of, you know, very conservative compared to our TV, compared to British TV. And I think that it actually proves how jumpy the media landscape is at the moment. You know, it wouldn't have happened maybe two years ago, but it is happening now. And I think it is just about the political climate at the moment. People are worried about being fined, you know, losing franchises, that kind of thing. And so I think, it's kind of inevitable, but very, very sad.
Juravich: Bobbi, earlier Kim was talking about how she's not a huge fan of social media, but social media has basically become the fourth wall of a lot of these reality TV series, where people feel like they know these people. The reality TV contestants, they keep following them on social media after they're done with the show. They watch every story they post. The people continue to be famous, but then the audience continues to think they're involved in their lives. What do you make of that that extra layer on this reality TV moment the social media part of it?
Miller: I think it keeps your audience like locked in. Like I think it's helpful for a show, especially like "Love Island", where you can have the series unfold and really be kind of moved through the culture via social media. So people, you know, publishing think pieces and about different contestants or the different relationships, or, you now, like people who have worked on prior seasons coming forward and being like, oh, I've got some like insider knowledge on what's happening.
And then when the season ends, And you have your person who you're like, I wanna support, I think it does come from a good place. I think people's hearts maybe are in the right place where they want to support this person who they feel was plucked from obscurity and put on this high pedestal of being on television and they want support their career. And so they follow their every move and make sure that they're vetted and tested.
I think once you win a reality TV show, you're almost now you're tested on, can you survive in the rest of traditional media? And I think the audience does have an awareness of that. And so they want to make sure that they have the backing and the support that they need. So I think if someone like Alandria from last season's yeah, "Love Island", where she's everywhere, and I think it's because she has such a powerful fan base underneath her. And she kind of comes in with a built-in audience, which I think really runs, especially Hollywood now, that you are vetted by a large swath of people. Not necessarily what you can bring to any given programming or red carpet, but it's like people wanna know where you are. And so that means we want you to be at our event. And that provides kind of like built-in viewership.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about reality TV with Kim Akass, professor of television studies and an independent scholar, and Bobbi Miller, pop culture critic and host of "Culture Kitsch" on YouTube. And reality TV shows have always had a way, like they make people famous, as you were just saying with that example from "Love Island", but a strong example is "Keeping Up with the Kardashians". The Kardashians, it started as a reality TV show, but now they're fashion icons, A-list celebrities. Do you think that we're Kim were they the pioneers of this pipeline of being a reality TV contestant and then becoming actually famous?
Akass: Or that is such a good question, Amy, because I'm just thinking, who won the best Oscar female actress this year? Jessie Buckley, right? She started on a reality TV series over here. She was, I think they were looking for, I think it was Oliver or one of the musicals. And so she, I don't know if she even won it, but she was on it and she certainly got.
An audience now I'm not this not social media but you know she's moved all the way through she she's proved herself actually no she didn't when she came second which is really interesting when you look at reality TV because it's often the second people that get the longer longer contracts and more successful so I think you know there is a point people do use reality TV to get out there to make contacts to get network But as I said, with Jessie Buckley, she's now an Oscar-winning actress. And so, you know, it's like the rest, as they say, is history. There are really good stories out there. It doesn't just lead to being an influencer. It can lead to a really successful acting career. So, rest my case for reality TV.
Juravich: But Bobbi, what do you make of the reality competition shows that are kind of mind games? I'm thinking of the new "Beast Games" on Amazon Prime where that I mean, he makes them make really difficult decisions and do some bad things to their quote unquote friends in order to earn money. What do you think of the are there any ethical concerns there about the future of our psyche when it comes to these competition shows with mind games.
Miller: Absolutely. Mr. Beast is kind of taking the model from his YouTube channel and then putting it onto a television show. But it also is just an example of the things that we've seen in reality TV for decades now, which is that they can be kind of putting a magnifying glass to the whatever societal woe is very prominent at the time.
And so obviously a lot of people are in pretty financial, like dire financial straits right now. And a show built on this kind of like. It feels like adult child with a ton of money kind of dangling it in people's faces. It feels like the aspect of reality TV that can be really exploitative. You know, like you have the shows that are meant to be aspirational. You know maybe they're a little scandalous every once in a while, but there is maybe like a good natured spirit to it.
But then there are also the shows that are to be kind of wholly exploitative and I think that those shows where you're putting people who are, you know, clearly like They want money and we're in a capitalist society. So everyone wants to do anything that they can to walk away maybe in a better financial situation. But it's just, I think it just is a good mirror in a way that horror movies can be a mirror to like any of our societal pressures or fears. I think these types of reality TV shows maybe are a mirror to the worst parts of ourselves.
Juravich: Well, unfortunately, we're out of time. I was going to say that, you know, Mr. Beast may have, "Survivor" invented the mind games when it comes to money, but Mr. Beasts may have taken it to a whole new level, but we'll leave it there. We've been talking about the ups and downs of reality TV with Kim Akass, a professor of television studies and an independent scholar. Thanks for joining us today, Kim.
Akass: Thank you, Amy, thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it.
Juravich: And Bobbi Miller, a pop culture critic, writer and host of "Culture Kitsch" on YouTube. Thanks for joining us, Bobbi.
Miller: Thank you so much. This was amazing.
Juravich: And this has been All Sides on 89.7 NPR News.