People want to be more present, and smart phones are largely responsible for taking us out of the moment.
Consumer Reports home and technology reporter Courtney Lindwall recently bought the Nokia 2780 Flip in an effort to embrace “digital minimalism,” a movement that largely began to reclaim mental calmness from the chaotic digital realm.
With new technologies like artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency becoming more widespread, so is their use in scams. We will talk about how you can stay vigilant against scammers.
Soon, it’s possible that the next Lyft you call won’t have a driver. Google’s self-driving car, Waymo, is expanding into new cities.
With the right hardware, you might soon be able to order your next take-out delivery meal with your Alexa.
Guests:
- Courtney Lindwall, tech reporter, Consumer Reports
- Kenyetta Bagby, manager, Office of Consumer Affairs, Ohio Department of Commerce
- Russell Holly, director of commerce content, CNET
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to Tech Tuesday from All Sides with Amy Juravich, a show where we share stories about science, technology, and the future of our environment. People want to be more present, and smartphones are largely responsible for taking us out of the moment. Many people are tired of constantly having their attention whisked away by notifications on a screen.
People have become dependent on their phones for everyday activities, from navigating their city, traveling, paying for things, communicating with friends and family. But alternatives do exist. Consumer Reports' home and technology reporter, Courtney Lindwall, recently bought a Nokia 2780 Flip in an effort to embrace digital minimalism, a new movement focusing on low screen time and reverting to less digital forms of technology. And she joins us today. Welcome to All Sides, Courtney. Thanks so much. So why did you decide to ditch the smartphone? Like, where did this idea come from for you?
Courtney Lindwall: You know, I've been seeing more and more people go back to older devices, you know, using flip phones other kinds of dumbed-down phones And so I was inspired inspired by others who slash their screen time and I've trying some other Techniques to that maybe hadn't given me the results that I was looking for So I thought this was a new a new way to go
Juravich: Was there a reason you settled on the brand that you picked? Is this Nokia particular flip phone? Is it a good one?
Lindwall: This one was recommended and I think the idea initially was, you know, I didn't want it to be too good of a phone, right? You want something that was not particularly pleasant to use. And this one was one that was recommended quite a bit, um, online already on forums. I was on Reddit, the sub Reddit dumb phone and this one was recommended.
Juravich: So you said you got a new phone number for your flip phone as well. Was it hard to explain to your friends and family about the switch? Like that you had to tell everyone I have a new number and explain why.
Lindwall: I only gave out the new phone number to a handful of people that I, you know, really needed to be able to communicate with. And folks, if you're like, um, you know going to meet someone for dinner and you want to make sure you can tell them you're running late or something like that, like those kinds of people I shared this number with.
But otherwise I was able to still communicate with everyone else on my old number using iMessage on my laptop. And so I just had a longer time waiting to respond to text messages, which is what I think was really nice. Um, Instead of responding to something immediately throughout the day, I just waited until I was able to get back to my laptop, um, in the evening.
Juravich: Okay, so this was more of a like checking your text one time of day situation on your laptop. Exactly, yeah. Okay, but you could still text on the flip phone. Remind us all how the cumbersome flip phone keyboard works.
Lindwall: I, it was a little nostalgic for me and it was, you know, it's kind of fun. You, you aren't sending these long texts anymore. So you're straight to the point. I was still texting with a handful of people. Um, but yeah, you, you. Clicking the numbers multiple times to find the letter or T nine texting, like predictive texting.
Um, so it's a lot slower. I'm quite a fast texter usually on my smartphone, so it's slower, but I mean, I think a lot of the things with the flip phone, it was more cumbersome, but like that was the point I didn't want to sit there and text someone back and forth. If I had something I wanted. To communicate that was longer, either waited to send a message on my laptop or I gave someone a call. And I think that was the point.
Juravich: Oh, there it is. You called the people instead of texting them. Like, what is that? We don't know how to do that anymore.
Lindwall: Exactly, yeah, so that was nice. If you want to have a longer conversation, calling in and all of that works perfectly fine on the flip phone. Like I was able to call and it sounded just as clear as it does on my normal phone.
Juravich: You must not have a teenager though because I can't imagine a teenager answering a phone call.
Lindwall: I do not have a TV. Navigate that.
Juravich: Okay, so how did you navigate everyday life without apps? You know without Venmo or an uber app a weather app or a maps app
Lindwall: Yeah, I mean, I think that was probably the most challenging thing. And that was immediately challenging. I mean everything from, I'm in New York city, so public transit, like when is the bus going to arrive sending, like you said, money over Venmo to someone that you owe money for dinner. Um, all of those things, you just had to be more mindful.
So like, for example, I commute on, you know, on the Metro North train, you know in the mornings. And so I always have my tickets and an app and I'm used to showing. The conductor on my smartphone. So it's just taking a few more minutes to go and print out tickets at the kiosk or even like my movie theater now has everything's on the app.
So I had to go to the front desk and get my tickets printed out. QR code menus, you know, I actually looked over in someone else's shoulder at the menu at a restaurant, but you know all those things, I think it was possible to navigate. Um, but everything was just a bit slower and you had to kind of think through and not rely on those automatic impulses to use an app for everything.
Juravich: So you found some workarounds around the apps, but how do you, like if you were going to a concert or something like that, like how do get in without a Ticketmaster app? I don't even know how you would do that now.
Lindwall: So in, you know, in my one week, I didn't go to a show. So there might be some cases in which you really do need to pull out a smartphone. But I think there tend to be other alternatives. Like if you go to the box office, typically I think they will be flexible and allow you to print out a ticket.
I think it's just those are that's an avenue that we haven't had to. Go down in so long so we're not familiar, but I think they tend to have alternatives for folks who are looking for them. There might be cases where you really don't have that, but I didn't go to a concert during this week, so I'm not sure, but yeah.
Juravich: What about maps and GPS? Like if you were trying to get somewhere, how did you figure out how to get there? Did you find a printer and print out directions?
Lindwall: That was probably the most challenging part partially because I just, I have a poor sense of direction. Um, I actually just jotted down. I looked it up on Google maps ahead of time, and then I jotted it down in a notebook. If I was going somewhere, um, like I said, I'm not driving everywhere. I'm usually taking public transit.
So there are maps around. So that was handy. I relied on those, um a bit, but I think it was also just those muscles that we maybe don't use nearly as often of, oh, no, I do know the route to this place that I've been a handful of times if I just stop and stop and think instead of automatically relying on opening navigation in my phone.
But I will say that the Nokia that I use does have a GPS app. It's just really frustrating to use. So it was there if you truly got lost, but it's not the same kind of seamless. Turn by turn navigation that's just, you know, reading out the directions to you. So I did just jot down directions when I was heading places.
Juravich: This is Tech Tuesday From All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about ditching smartphones with Courtney Lindwall, reporter for Consumer Reports. So were you not able to listen to music? I don't know if a flip phone can have music on it. Were you comfortable with silence?
Lindwall: In theory, they could have music you can you actually can connect to the radio on on these flip phones. I wasn't able to get it to find the station so that didn't work and you can technically like upload a few songs. I'm not sure how many I didn't try it seemed a bit cumbersome.
So I just went without music and that was also a big change because I'm used to and I think a lot of us are. Anytime you're in between places, you have either a podcast going, radio, music. And so turning all of that off for a bit, um, I think helped me recalibrate, you know, my nervous system a little bit. I have a lot more quiet during my day. Um, and it was nice. And I think, um yeah, it was, ended up being more pleasant than I thought. But I just, yeah, mostly didn't listen to music during this week.
Juravich: Did you take any pictures? Flip phone pictures are notoriously not great.
Lindwall: I did take some pictures and there are a few in the story, um, on consumer reports and they're, they're kind of fun and nostalgic. They're really grainy. I mean, yeah, compared to our, uh, cameras on our smartphones now, which are so high quality. I mean I think we forget, um how far phone cameras have come.
Um, so they did not look like that. And you know, I, people who have buy dumb phones now tend to also carry around little digital cameras, which I think are kind of a fun, nostalgic. Thing as well but just having another way to take high quality photos because I think that's important to so many people for memory keeping and sharing with friends and family um but it did technically the phone does technically have a camera and I did take some pictures but they were pretty poor and like dim and yeah blurry
Juravich: Well, if someone wants to go to a flip phone full time, but then still wants GPS and music, then and take photos, then they're gonna need like a external GPS, an MP3 player, a digital camera. So isn't that more digital stuff if you're trying to minimize?
Lindwall: In a way, yes, but I think ultimately, you have to think about kind of the impact on how you're experiencing all of these different pieces of technology. And I think that's, you know, the bottom line is the phone, I think ends up feeling very absorbing of your time and attention and takes up a lot of brain space.
And maybe that's not the case if you have... A dump one and a camera that you only pull out, you know, a few times a week to take a picture of something important and you only have the music that doesn't on an old school iPod that you've purchased off eBay that you use when you're, you're commuting. And I think having the different devices really serve individual purposes.
Even though there's maybe more of them to carry around, it actually changes your relationship to them. Or that was my experience in. I think that's the experience of a lot of people who have gone back to a different kind of phone. So yeah, carrying around more things, but I think your relationship to them is different. What about a group chat? Can you do a group on a flip phone?
I have heard lots of people complain about, so you can still, in theory, I think participate in group chats, but like the messages come in wonky, like they might come in individually instead of. It's not like the Nokia is showing you the group chat with all the messages in one thread. They're coming in individually. I didn't participate in the groupchat during my week trial, but I have heard lots of folks say that that gets difficult and you can't do the, you know, the hearting and the liking of different messages. And, and yeah, it makes that kind of communication more difficult. Okay. So you've mentioned
Juravich: a few times that you did this as like a week trial. Are you gonna stick with it? Are you back to the smartphone? I mean tell me more about the the the post part of this.
Lindwall: Yeah, I think, um, the setup that I have now is working well where I still have, I purchased like a three month, um you know, low data, stem card for from mint to put in the dumb phone so I can use it as needed. And then I have the smartphone also. So I am still using the smartphone.
My iPhone typically on a workday most days, but I still have the other flip phone. If I want to use it on a weekend where I just really want very low communication, I don't want to be on my device. I want to be more clear headed. And I think that's a really smart way that folks can kind of dip their toe into, you know, like we said, digital minimal minimalism and detoxing.
And. Having this experience and seeing if it's something you want to go and do more full-time. So you can have both devices and that's how I've been doing it. And so I've, I've using the flip phone still fairly regularly. And so like if I'm going out for the whole afternoon, taking it with me and leaving my iPhone at home.
Juravich: Do you think the flip-phone life is something everyone can do?
Lindwall: No, I think there are a number of circumstances that would probably make it quite a bit more difficult. I mean, there are definitely people who have jobs where they need the full capacity of a smartphone and to be very responsive all the time and that is very understandable and this I think would make it quit difficult.
And if you are a caretaker and need to be in very close communication with say family on an app like WhatsApp, for example, like communication over apps like that is harder. Um, it's not, that's maybe not a circumstance where you're like, Oh, I'll just wait until the evening to text people back. If you have kids have parents or family members, you need to be in contact with.
So I think there are lots of circumstances that would make this more difficult, but I also think there a lot, a lot of people who could benefit even part time and it might be easier, even more fun than they think. And I had tried other, um, techniques to reduce my screen time before, like. Um, grayscale mode on my phone. And I'd use the kind of brick device where it locks you out of certain apps. And it just wasn't the same as having my phone in a drawer where I wasn't looking at it for a full day. It just didn't have the same, um, I guess, clarity of mind.
Juravich: Yeah, that was what I was gonna ask. Can't you just, for digital minimalism, can't you recommend that people delete the apps that distract them? "Instagram," "YouTube," "TikTok," just don't have those.
Lindwall: Yeah. And I, and I think that is a great, uh, step. And if, if someone is able to get a lot of benefit out of that, go for it. I think I still try to have limits set on my phone that remind me like, okay, you've hit your "Instagram" limit, but I think a lot people find that those are easy to bypass.
Um, you have gray skill on for three days and you're like, okay, I'm sick of this. And you turn it off or you just bypass the screen. Limits, you re-download the apps over and over. I mean, I think a lot of people are really struggling with how to rein in their own behavior with these devices that are just so compulsively like addictive to use and so, um, those are great tools and people should try them out and get value where they can from them, but it might not be enough for the results that they want.
Juravich: I know you only did it exclusively for about a week, but what changed the most for you from that week off of the smartphone, mentally, physically?
Lindwall: You know, I think I tend to just be a wound up person. That's my natural state. And so even just a little bit of softening of that that I notice, I mean, you recognize how many pings you are getting from all kinds of things, whether it's news, reminders, texts from your friends.
And so like all of that, I think can just really have an effect on your actual physical state. And if you're prone to being wound up, then you don't really get a sense for the kind of calm that you could have until you really take a full break. That was the biggest takeaway. It took probably a few days to kind of feel that and remind myself that that was possible, I guess, yeah.
Juravich: I think the fear of missing out would make me more anxious, I don't know.
Lindwall: I agree, yes, that is also a real concern, but I will say you get to the end of the day and you can still respond to all those people and no one was mad at me for texting them back a few hours later, and I still went out and spent time with my friends, so I don't think I missed out on too much.
Juravich: Well, then I'll end up like on my laptop texting people and looking at "Facebook" and staying up all night I guess is what will happen to me, but that's that's me All right Do you just to end on do you think that this dumb phone trend will gain traction or is it just for a few people?
Lindwall: I do, and I think I've seen a lot of Gen Zers having a lot of interest in this. So I think it's something that younger folks are interested in, I think is part of a broader movement of wanting to spend time more intentionally. I saw a lot interest around the New Year, New Year's resolutions wanting to engage more with like hands-on hobbies, analog activities.
So I it's part of broader trend of people just wanting to not give so much of their time. And attention to feeds and social media feeds that they aren't choosing what the content is. It's like just being more intentional with their time. So I do think it will grow. I don't expect this to be a fad because people care about how they spend their days and their time
Juravich: We've been talking about switching from a smartphone to a flip phone with Consumer Reports Home and Technology reporter Courtney Lindwall. Thank you so much for your time today, Courtney. Thanks so much. And coming up, we're going to talk about how to protect ourselves from scams. That is when Tech Tuesday from All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to Tech Tuesday from All Sides with Amy Juravich, a show where we share stories about science, technology, and the future of our environment. As much as all of us would like to think so, unfortunately, no one is immune to being scammed. And just like everything else around us, it's constantly changing. Scams are changing too.
With new technologies like artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency becoming more widespread, And so are their use of tricks and cons. So what can you do to protect yourself from these evolving scams and what do some of them look like in the first place? Joining us now is Kenyetta Bagby, manager of the Office of Consumer Affairs for the Ohio Department of Commerce. Welcome to the show, Kenyetta.
Kenyetta Bagby: Thank you, Amy. Great to be here.
Juravich: All right, so in this current environment of scams, what are the hot scams now? I guess I'm what I'm saying, like what scams? What is the current environment of scames look like right now?
Bagby: There are so many different scams going on right now. It's sometimes hard to keep them straight. We have the grandparent scam, which has evolved into the kid scam, where generally a family member is contacting another family member, supposedly, for money. We have scams that deal with AI, and with the use of AI, it's evolved so much So that.
Scammers can now clone your voice and make phone calls to your family members sounding like you sounding as as if you are in dire straits and need money Investments cryptocurrency scams. The scams are so widespread and so many Sometimes it's hard to keep up with them
Juravich: Yeah, I see some of those sound very scary too, the one that can like duplicate your voice and that kind of thing. I guess the scam that I have been getting hit with the most often is very low level. I get so many text messages from the Pennsylvania and Ohio Turnpike Commission, right? But that sounds like nothing compared to some of these.
Bagby: That is a pretty popular scam. The text message scams, especially the toll scams. And then those that act like they're coming from maybe a UPS or FedEx or USPS saying that they can't deliver your package. Then there are email scams there are QR code scams so far and wide. So many.
Juravich: What happens when we get one of those text scams that tells us that our package, USPS has our package and they need to get it to us and we click the link in the text, what happens then?
Bagby: Well, number one, you don't click the link. Don't, yeah. You never click the links. If you are expecting a package from one of those shippers or providers, what you need to do is contact those folks directly. You never clicked the link, you never try to call the number associated with that text if there is a number there.
You open yourself up to be scammed when you do that. Because. Nine times out of 10, that link has some kind of code in it that's going to try to steal your information, your personal and financial information. So what's best to do is contact the person you're expecting that package from.
Juravich: So if we do, though, click the link, is there, I mean, can you figure out pretty quickly that it's a scam usually, or are some of these very sophisticated?
Bagby: Some are very sophisticated and you don't realize that you've been scammed right away. Some, if you just float over the link that's there. The information that's there, the URL, will give you an idea that it's not from UPS or FedEx. Usually the link, if you hover over it, you'll get some other website. And so that is an indication there that it is not coming from the UPS or FedEX shipper.
If you happen to click the link. And find yourself filling out that form that is associated with that link, and it asks for information that maybe your carrier shouldn't be asking for, your password, any information that seems personal. Those are times when you shut it down. You don't wanna continue filling out the form, you don't want to provide them with any information. You get out of the link, you get out of the website that it directs you to and close everything down.
Juravich: Tell me more about these artificial intelligence scams. Who are the main targets and how can you figure out that AI is trying to trick you?
Bagby: That's a really great question. With AI, everyone's a target. There is no one specific age group or demographic that is targeted. Everyone is a target, so initially what happens is it's a fishing game. The fraudster is trying to scam whoever they can, however they can for whatever they can.
So, you may get a call. Providing, saying that maybe you forgot to pay on an account or they didn't have the information they needed to charge your account for a service that they completed for you. It sounds so legitimate and it's customer service-based, so it's supposed to sound legitimate. But then you realize maybe I didn't receive a service from this person or.
I don't recall making a purchase of that size or that magnitude and you realize at that point that maybe this isn't who you think it is. The idea of the AI scam is to get as much information from you as possible so that they can then lull you into comfort to get your financial information.
So when they are speaking with you very calmly, trying to get information as if they're trying to help or support whatever situation you have going on. They're lulling you into a false sense of comfort so that you can divulge information that you really should not be giving.
Juravich: This is Tech Tuesday from All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about how to protect yourself from scams with Kenyenta Bagby, manager at the Office of Consumer Affairs at the Ohio Department of Commerce. So earlier, you mentioned that AI can even impersonate your voice as a part of the scam, and that's a little scary. I mean, how do you know? Do you need to ask it questions that only the real person would know the answer to? So that, like, I don't know how, like how would you figure that out? So my family and I.
Bagby: Have code words. My sister has a 16 year old who is always in need of money and so he has a set of code words that he uses when he is let's say at basketball practice and forgot his wallet or a mom didn't give him additional money to stay after school with. He'll or text and say, hey. And he'll give me the code words.
And I know that it's him asking me for money. I know it's that him asking for a $20 cash out. With the AI voice clone, it's very meticulous. It's very scary how it sounds so much like your relative that it really makes you wonder if it's your relative or not. If you're not sure, even if you are sure that it sounds like your relatives, disconnect and call your relative.
Shut down that phone call, shut down that text back and forth call. That person with a number that you know and ask them if there is a problem, if there's an issue, if they need money, what's going on so that you're talking to who you're supposed to be talking to.
Juravich: The AI can't clone your phone number then, or can it? Oh no.
Bagby: Well, it's interesting, as my mom gets older, when I fill out forms for her, I put my phone number instead of hers. Okay, yeah. But it's interest now that AI can clone phone numbers because I'll get phone calls that say they are calling for her but it's me calling me. Oh no. So, it's funny, but the reality is... No one's safe. I'm chuckling because I'm uncomfortable, I think. Yes.
Juravich: Yes, yes, no one's
Bagby: I get calls and it's funny because I see my own name go across my phone. Well, I'm not calling me. So we just have to be careful with the information we give out and how we use that information, make sure we're protecting ourselves and our loved ones.
Juravich: What do you do if you figure out that you're being scammed? Can you report it? Does that even work? Cause I mean, my phone is constantly telling me to report spam and I do sometimes, you know, it depends on my mood, I guess, and I click the report spam. Like, does that work?
Bagby: Help. So for every scam that we encounter, someone else encounters the same scam and they are not reporting it. They're embarrassed that they feel like they've been scammed. Reporting helps because it cuts down on the ability of that scam to continue to move forward. Fraudsters have to continue to evolve that scam, which I don't know that that's a good thing, but at At least they're not scamming.
Anyone in the interim. Reporting to the FTC, reporting to the AG's office, Federal Trade Commission and the Attorney General's office and also to the FBI helps so that the scams eventually are severed because eventually we hope the scammers get caught. So it is helpful to report it.
Juravich: Okay, so Verizon, AT&T, whatever phone company, they say you can report a spam number, that kind of thing, and then you just said we can call the FBI if it's a severe one, I guess, more than just a phone call. But what about your office? Can we call the Ohio Department of Commerce?
Bagby: Absolutely. We have a line as well. And we have a website where they can go on. Consumers can go and report a scam or fraud. It's important that it gets reported. It is important that we continue to have conversations about scam and fraud. Ultimately, it is because we don't have those conversations and we aren't reporting it that it is getting out of role to begin with.
You see or we see people all the time older people all the time getting scammed and because they're ashamed and feel like they should have known better. They don't say anything. And they are suffering in silence because they haven't said anything. So it's important that we get the word out. It's important that we have the conversations about scams. It's that they are reported.
Juravich: I was gonna ask you what is the most vulnerable demographic to being scammed right now? Is it the elderly?
Bagby: It is the elderly because they have more to lose. Scammers really don't care who you are. They don't your age. They don't care your demographic. What they care about is getting what they want. There is truth to everyone being a target. They go after young people 16 to 25 because they're always on their phones.
So they get caught with the online scams, the "TikTok" shops, the false "TikTok" shops and the "Facebook" shops that do not exist but they copy the websites to make you feel like you're purchasing something but you never receive it. 16 to 25 always gets caught with those.
Seniors are usually caught with the grandparent scam, where a family member or friend is in trouble and needs help. And because of the urgency behind it, they wanna be helpful. They want to do what they can to help. Just not knowing that they're not talking to a family members or a friend, but giving money away to someone who is, if they get you once, they're gonna try to get you again. But essentially seniors are the most vulnerable because they have more to lose.
Juravich: Your office from time to time will send out a press release or make an alert of about a particular scam because you just want people to be aware of it. You did that with the Turnpike scam because a lot of people were getting this Turnpke text saying they owed the Turnpipe money. Is there any right now that you want to alert people to? Maybe Turnpikes included? Yeah.
Bagby: There are a couple of different scams that are on our radar that we are continuing to discuss and give information about. The QR code scam is really one that's popular because you believe that you are paying for parking downtown or scanning the QR code to pull up a restaurant menu and you're being redirected to another website.
Where they're asking for your financial information and you're willing to give it to them because you believe you're paying for parking or paying for what you had at your restaurant. So are people putting up fake parking signs? Yes, fake QR codes over the QR codes that are on the parking signs.
Juravich: Oh no.
Bagby: Fake QR codes over the ones that are on the tables at the restaurants. One of the things that you always want to look out for, whether or not it is one of those QR codes or whether it's a website, is you wanna make sure that the website that you are accessing is secure.
How do you do that? You look for the S in the HTTP address. So it should be HT. T P S and then your semicolon forward slash. When you have that S there that signifies that it's a secure website. Oftentimes when you go on these websites that are created by scammers there's no S there. So that's one indication that you are not at a secure site and you never want to put your financial or personal information in those sites without that S. There.
Juravich: Fascinating. OK, well, now I'm going to be second-guessing every QR code I scan. Oh, man. OK, so just to end on, if people want to report a scam to your office, I don't want to bombard you with tips, but where do you send people? Just to your website? We do. We send them to. Is it HTTP 7S? Does it have an S?
Bagby: It does have an s there. So where they will go is com.ohio.gov forward slash consumers. And when they get there, there are a host of resources there that they can learn about different scams there. They can also request us to come out and have a conversation with their consumers or their audience about anything from financial literacy to consumer protection. And they can also report their scams there.
Juravich: Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us and telling us about the scams to watch out for. We've been talking with Kenyetta Bagby, manager at the Office of Consumer Affairs for the Ohio Department of Commerce. Thank you so for your time today. Thank you. Coming up, we're going to talk about self-driving cars and symptom relief for motion sickness. That is when Tech Tuesday from All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to Tech Tuesday from All Sides with Amy Juravich, a show where we share stories about science, technology, and the future of our environment. Soon it's possible that your next lift that you call won't actually have a driver. Google's self-driving car Waymo is expanding into new cities, and the future autonomous cars is no longer a far-off tech utopian idea. Here to tell us about it is Russell Holly, director of commerce content with CNET. Thanks for being here, Russell.
Russell Holly: Thank you for having me.
Juravich: So let's talk about Waymo. It's only in certain cities right now, Phoenix, San Francisco, cities like that. But when do you think it'll make its way to Columbus? How many years are we waiting here?
Holly: I think that will depend very much on negotiations between Waymo and Columbus as an actual city. But one of the things that has been fairly constant about Waymo's expansions so far has been a very similar climate in most of the places that these cars have been deployed, by which I mean...
You know, the weather is quite predictable and consistent and not leaning towards either of the extremes, although I will say Phoenix gets quite a bit hotter than San Francisco, so there is some some difference there in the the rollout that they've been so far. You know, if you have ever been... If you've been to New York in the last couple months, you've seen a couple of Waymo cars go around, but what is being planned with the next wave of launches includes cities like Seattle, London, Minneapolis, and Detroit.
All of those have very different weather conditions, ranging from extreme cold to just an enormous amount of rain. And those are really complicated things for self-driving cars to navigate, especially when those cars are using tracking systems that are camera-based, like you see with Tesla's cyber, you know. Rollouts for for their taxis and vans.
You know those are those are going to function a lot more challenging in those places. So it seems an awful lot like what Waymo is doing is intentionally targeting places that it knows its competition is going to struggle in in order to kind of cement an early lead in those
Juravich: Now overall, have these cars gotten better at doing what they're doing? Because last night I was watching a video montage of Waymo cars screwing up. And I watched more than one montage. One of them was definitely AI. My daughter looked over my shoulder and she was like, that's not real. But I swear one of them is real. So are Waymo Cars getting better?
Holly: There are very many news stories with actual videos of Waymo cars not either behaving like you would expect them to or in one really tragic environment in San Francisco, something like 50 of them in a parking lot all. Setting off their car alarm at the same time in the middle of a busy neighborhood full of people trying to sleep.
These are far from perfect vehicles. And this is something that we've talked about before is that there doesn't really seem to be a national set of regulations for these things to apply to. They seem to going from city to city and having individual agreements with each one of these cities to make sure that those rules are being followed.
So it's likely that we will reach a point where there will be some contrasting differences from city-to-city as far as how these vehicles perform. But when it comes to self-driving cars, as we understand them, the Waymo platform is by far, in a way, the most capable in terms of being able to navigate a city safely and kind of not, it has the least number of known accidents and kind of obvious, let's call it rule bending, in order to get a person where they need to go.
Juravich: And this is kind of an aside, but did I read that Waymo can also drop off an Uber Eats item? Um, is that happening?
Holly: Yes, that is a thing that can happen in cities. I know that that is something that is currently available in San Francisco. I have not seen it in other places just yet, but your mileage may vary there.
Juravich: Someone has to physically walk the bag and set it in the car, and then it drives it to you, and you have to go out and get it from the car? Is that- Yeah, exactly.
Holly: Yeah, it's actually there's two additional steps there. The person walking up with the food has to have the Waymo app in their hand and indicate that they are, in fact, the restaurant making that delivery in order for the vehicle to unlock, for them to open the vehicle and put it in. And then you, as the person who placed the order, have to also walk up with your phone in hand and confirm that you are the person receiving the food before the vehicle unlocks for you to open and then grab the bag.
Juravich: Okay, is that more efficient? Does that make the ride cheaper?
Holly: I don't know how efficient it is to have a private taxi for your subway sandwich, but it is certainly fewer humans involved in theory.
Juravich: In theory, all right. Okay, well, I get, my last question is, so for Waymo, does having an autonomous vehicle, does it make the overall ride cheaper? Is say, if you hail a Waymo instead of an Uber.
Holly: Yes, in many places from my personal experience, if I look at the two different apps, the Waymo vehicles are usually between 5 and 10 percent less expensive than an Uber or Lyft. Now, it is more than likely that Google as a company is running these at a deficit in order to, you know, bring attention to these places and those prices may change over time.
These are all electric cars, both the Jaguar I-Pace and the Zika Ohai, the four-door sedan and the, like, multi-person van. Uh... That runs on these two platforms uh... You know they they are all electric so they're not uh... You know there not bound by the the fuel problem uh... Uh... Yeah that is currently experienced in the u s uh... But uh...you know energy prices being what they are you know those those costs are also uh... Going to to vary from place to place so i would expect that it is inexpensive it is less expensive right now on purpose and will probably not stay that way forever
Juravich: This is Tech Tuesday and we're talking about some recent tech news with Russell Holly, the director of commerce content at CNET. Um, moving on to a smart speaker with the right hardware, you might soon be able to order your next takeout delivery meal from your smart speaker.
You can converse with us. I want to say, Alexa, sorry guys, you can con verse with her about what you are craving to have your perfect dinner delivered to your door without having to lift a finger. So the smart speaker can connect to a third party app and then can deliver your food. Are these smart speakers making it easier to order food? Tell me about this process.
Holly: That's actually where things get messy for this platform because you have said smart speaker now a couple of times and it actually only applies to their smart displays. So if you have one of the show models for the Echo platform that has a screen built in, or you have the calendar style screens that have been built in or some of the other third parties that have a display, a display is necessary. Uh, for this ordering process because there is a confirmation process that you have to go through in order to make that, uh, that order.
And if I'm being perfectly honest, uh in the test that we ran, it took almost twice as long to place an order using my voice and looking at the screen and making sure that it was confirmed than just pulling out my phone and placing the order. Where I see this being useful for people is folks who have like a regular order. Something that they already know that they want.
It's a Tuesday night. I get a cheeseburger from this place down the street, and so I'm going to go ahead and place my regular order. Being able to access previously placed orders is something that is part of this experience, and in that aspect, it is faster than using your phone. But if you've got a group of people over and you decide to order something, your voice is going to be noticeably slower.
Juravich: Okay, and the smart speaker with display can only connect with certain third-party apps? Are they working with everyone, or can you only get, is it "Grubhub?"
Holly: Right now it is "UberEats" and "Grubhub," which are technically part of the same company. You know, so some of the other services aren't going to be available yet, but with that, you know, it is likely that competition will file suit because these are third-party apps that anybody can build, you know.
So I imagine that it's based on the success of this platform as to how many competing services that you're able to add to your platform. It's also just a significantly lower number of active users, most folks who have You know, this platform have one of the really tiny inexpensive speakers in a couple of rooms in the house.
There just aren't as many people that have the great big display versions of these smart speakers, regardless of if it's "Amazon" or "Google" or "Apple." So I think the number of people who even have the ability to use this right now is probably pretty low and it'll be a little while before we know how effective it actually ends up being.
Juravich: Can you actually have a whole conversation about the meal? Like will the smart speaker say, would you like fries with that? Do you want pickles? Like, or you have to know exactly what you're ordering.
Holly: There are some options for taking a look at specific parts of the menu. So you can say, show me the desserts from this place and it will give you a list and then it is at least partly conversational. When you have that kind of back and forth and the information shows up on the screen in a way that relies really heavily on photography from the restaurant in order to show you what it is that you're buying. But yeah, it's certainly not the same as walking into the restaurant and placing an order with a person, but it is more conversational than you would get from just ordering on your phone.
Juravich: Moving on to another topic, motion sickness is a common discomfort that affects many people on long car rides, and Samsung has come up with an audio solution. Using Samsung's "Herope" app, users will be able to relieve some of the symptoms of motion sickness by alleviating the dissonance of the inner ear and visual sensations. Okay, so the app is called "Herope," if I'm saying it right. How does it actually work?
Holly: Yeah, so this is a minimum of 60 seconds of playback. The display in the app is quite simple. You open the app and you tap the middle of the screen and it has a countdown that you can focus on because some folks who have motion sickness also benefit from having a single point that they can focus to.
Uh with you know some some you know quite gentle uh animations there but it is a it is a 60 second minimum uh low frequently bass sound uh and and that sound has uh has been demonstrated in in several studies to help uh relieve motion sickness for upwards of two hours um now we haven't done any uh testing to confirm if this works a second time
So if you were motion sick and then you're not motion sick for two hours, but then you become motion sick again Does it work a second time is not something that we have personally test, but it should function an unlimited number of times Because our bodies don't adapt to sine wave intrusions from headphones
Juravich: Okay, this is a Samsung app, is it only for Samsung devices then?
Holly: It is currently available on Samsung headphones, but this is something that Samsung has in the past made these open to as many different sets of headphones as possible. I think the issue here is that it's quite a specific frequency that needs to be played in order for this to be effective. It has to be a 100 hertz tone, and so this is something that they can guarantee with their own headphones, and as that improves over time will likely expand to others.
Juravich: And are there other motion sickness apps or is this kind of like a one of a kind?
Holly: There are a couple of different motion sickness apps, as well as pieces of hardware that are supposed to help with motion sickness. There are couple of companies that make intelligent wristbands that connect to your phone and will pulse at different rates in order to help kind of create like an inverse wave to what you're feeling as you're on water, for example. But nothing that is as comprehensive as this seems to be.
Juravich: And our final topic, we have a couple of minutes, so we'll go very fast. Companies want to protect their data and become less reliant on big tech. So Protons Workspace is a data safe encrypted workspace, and it now includes a video conferencing app. Tell me about Protons workspace, what makes it so special?
Holly: If you have heard of Proton before, there's a very good chance that you have only heard of their email client. Proton email was a couple years ago largely seen as like a super nerdy version of an email client for people who didn't think that. The existing services like "Outlook" and "Gmail" and "Inbox" and things like that just weren't quite enough, didn't offer enough features.
And so Proton started out as an organization that you paid two bucks a month to and you this really configurable email client. And with that, the company has grown quite quietly in the background to add services that compete directly with Microsoft's "Office" platform and "Google" and "Apple." And this is a step in that, kind of furthering in that direction.
Workspace is designed to eventually replace the entirety of Microsoft "Office" or "Google Workspace" or "Apple's Office Platform." So that corporate level folks would be able to make the entire change for their companies and be rid of the companies that they view, you know, kind of having a vested interest in consuming their data.
Juravich: Okay, so this is for companies that want to not use Microsoft or Google for their platform for everything they do. This is a new option, another option.
Holly: That, yeah, that is very much Proton's hope, is that they can get themselves in front of the right organizations to do this. The cost, if you were to do just on your own, is around $240 a year or $25 per user monthly for how you set that up. So as an individual person, there probably aren't a ton of people who are willing to make that change. But with a corporate agreement, that price comes down pretty considerably, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were quite a few companies interested in making that change.
Juravich: All right. Well, I want to thank you so much for your time today. We have been talking with the director of commerce content at CNET, Russell Holly. Thanks, Russell.
Holly: Thanks for having me.
Juravich: And you've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. If you missed any part of today's show, visit our website, wosu.org slash all sides. Subscribe to our podcast. Every episode is available in the WOSU mobile app. Also be sure to like the show on Facebook or follow our show on Instagram, at all sides WOSU. I'm Amy Juravich on 89 7 NPR news.