The TSA staffing at U.S. airports is currently operating without pay, understaffing and with overwhelmingly long lines. In addition, TSA staffers are quitting or calling out sick.
President Trump is calling on ICE to come to the aid of the TSA, but will it be enough?
We’re talking about ICE coming to the aid of the TSA at the nation’s airports.
Guests:
- Andrea Sachs, Washington Post Travel reporter
- William McGee, Senior Fellow for Aviation and Travel at American Economic Liberties Project
- Elaine Glusac, Frugal Traveler columnist for the New York Times Travel section
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. Whether you're traveling for business or pleasure, there's a chance you could experience delays at some of the nation's busiest airports.
A partial government shutdown has led to overworked and understaffed TSA agents. Plus, there are always flight delays and cancelations due to weather and mechanical issues too. To alleviate the security checkpoint problems, ICE agents are being deployed to help travelers get to their destinations.
We're talking about ice coming to the aid of TSA and the current state of air travel this hour. Joining us now, we have Washington Post travel reporter Andrea Sachs. Welcome to All Sides, Andrea.
Andrea Sachs: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Juravich: So what airports have you found that are experiencing the longest lines, the longest delays? I read somewhere that Atlanta and Houston had up to six hours at some point.
Sachs: Yes, Atlanta and Houston, we have two Houston's we have Bush IH and also Hobby. So both have been, we've seen like really, really long lines at both of them, but it comes in waves. So it might be, you know, a certain hour where it's really long, it slows down relatively speaking, then it picks up again.
The New York airports have been slammed JFK. We have seen also Chicago hair, but then some have been relatively quiet too. So that's kind of third.
Juravich: Yeah, so TSA agents have been calling out sick. A lot are working without pay. Some are simply quitting their jobs. How are airports coping with this situation? And let's talk about it before the deployment of ICE, and then we'll get to the ICE part. So how are airports coping with this, having fewer TSA Agents around? Yes, you're absolutely right.
Sachs: The latest number I've seen more than 450 TSA officers have quit and that's out of about a 50,000 or so workforce. And they've just had to close not just lanes, but like full on checkpoints. So they either have limited hours or they're closing lanes. Pre-check might they have to blend into the regular travelers. So it's just they're really shrinking where we can go through security with fewer people to.
Juravich: So if you have pre-check, you're not guaranteed to move faster because they might have to not offer pre-checks because of the other lanes? Yeah, sometimes they give you, I don't know.
Sachs: This little card, like a penalty card, but it's not a penalty card. And so you still get the benefits or the privileges of not having to take your shoes off, which we don't have to do anymore, anyway, or remove your electronics, but you are merging with the other lane. And it's just jaw dropping when you see all those people.
So the people who have applied for clear and that subscription base that costs about $200 for membership, they will kind of show up and then figure out like what the best strategy is. So they might do clear to get to the front of the line and then use their pre-check to go through the actual X-ray and scanning machines.
Juravich: Oh, there's a lot of strategy there. I'm familiar with pre-check, but I'm not as familiar with clear. Does clear go through TSA? Do agents check people who have clear? Or do clear employees do clear?
Sachs: Clare always has, when you go into the lane and they're kind of on the side of it, but they parallel the TSA lanes and I can't remember what they're wearing, but they're almost like carnival barkers. They come up to you, they're like, hey, do you want to come over here and check out my ... My offer. My kiosk. So then they will, you pay, well, if you're a member in advance, you'll pay in advance And then they just, I don't know, I'm not a clear member.
But they just confirm that you are a CLEAR member. And then you get to jump to the front of the line. So TSA is not checking your credentials. So you immediately just go straight into the area where they are checking your bags and your person rather than having to stay in line with everybody else.
CLEAAR also has an app. So you can do a 24 hour day pass. So that might be good for people who don't travel frequently but are traveling during these kinds of troublesome times. And they just get the app. They sign up for the day pass They haven't told me how much it costs, but I think it's $20 or less.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm
Sachs: and they're also doing a two-month free trial. So this would be the time to do the.
Juravich: Of course they are, yes. This would be the time. Okay, so then let's move into the rationale for deploying ICE agents into airports. What exactly are the ICE agents doing, and it's only at certain airports, but what's the plan here?
Sachs: Yes, as of right now, we have about 14 that we've confirmed. I see that being in DC, Dallas and DCA might have ICE officers as well. Living in DC it seems very similar to the National Guard here. I feel like they stand around a lot. I'm not criticizing, but they don't have the training. So training to be a TSA officer, depending on what the task is, can be eight months.
And it is intense. And they understand there is high technological. Equipment that they have. And ICE is not trained in this whatsoever. So they have been deployed basically to crowd management. And to there's the exit, where sometimes some people come into this like exit booth. And so they're kind of manning that exit booth, you know, when you exit the your area and you're not allowed to turn around and go back. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's primary.
Juravich: What they're doing. So security and human traffic management basically.
Sachs: Correct, yeah, and making sure that the people in the precheck lane or precheck people and not regular people and oftentimes during peak travel periods like holidays, spring break, they will have airline employees do the same task.
You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News.
We're talking about ICE coming to the aid of TSA at some of the nation's airports, and we're talking with Washington Post travel reporter Andrea Sachs.
So here in Columbus, we have the John Glenn International Airport, and the airport put out a statement saying they are not aware of any plans for ICE personnel to assist at the airport. And they posted a statement thanking TSA officers who continue to show up to work every day. So Columbus hasn't had that long of lines. They haven't had bad.
So is this because maybe Columbus is a smaller airport or maybe they're just seeing fewer agents quitting or calling in sick at this point in the shutdown?
Sachs: Yes, I think that's it. I think the secondary airports are doing a little better or the ones that aren't really hub cities. So you have so many people where they have to go to Atlanta or Houston to get elsewhere, whether it's to the West Coast or to down South or Mexico or wherever.
So the hub airports are feeling the bulk of it, but it could also be, as you said, the employees, some are maybe just more resistant to this, not getting paid and they can stick it out a little longer, maybe others are just frustrated and just... Finding work elsewhere. And we've heard about them having to pick up second jobs and their food banks and travelers are asking how they can help, if they can give gift cards or bake muffins or whatever it may be.
So I think part of it is that as well, there are about 20 airports, if not more that have private security. And one of them is big San Francisco International and they're not having these problems because they're relying on federal funding.
Juravich: So at Columbus's airport, they also had a Facebook post where they said that they are collecting gift cards for the TSA agents, and they said agents are allowed to accept gifts up to $20. So they're asking, they were very specific, they asked for the gift cards to be dropped off at the airport information desk in $20 increments. Yes. So, I mean, and that's nice, that's lovely, but is that really sustainable?
Sachs: No, no, not at all. Not if this goes on. And Congress is going into their Easter break on Fridays, and they haven't figured out how to fund TSA just yet. They have not come to an agreement. So if they go on vacation, like we're stuck with this for a lot longer.
And it's not even us. I mean, emphasize these are people with livelihoods and children and pets and elderly in themselves. So they need to be taken care of. So that helps. And I think just anything we can do to support them in kind words and any sort of generosity, but really they need to get the deal done and get them their paychecks.
Juravich: Tell me more about private security. I didn't even know airports had private security until this all happened and I was looking at airport wait times. So some airports don't have TSA agents. They have their own system. Is that right? That is correct. I just learned that too. Yesterday.
Sachs: In fact. So that is exactly what it is. They have some kind of partnership where they, almost like, I don't want to say homeschooling, but they fit the criteria where they have secure system that is equal to what TSA would offer. And so they just, I dunno if it's airport or the city, but somebody not the government is paying for private security.
And, so similar as we are saying with clear. So here's another, if you don't have pre-check here is is another alternative, although it's not quite equal to pre-check. Yes, so these airports are getting privately funded, and therefore they are not struggling through this log jam.
Juravich: So, Columbus and Cincinnati airports here in Ohio do not have ICE agents. But as of yesterday, Cleveland Hopkins Airport does have ICE Agents. And yesterday, the Cleveland newspaper had a story with a headline. And the headline read, ICE agents are now patrolling Cleveland Hopkins airport and nobody can explain why.
And so that was the headline. So basically, the article says that the agents are there to help with passenger flow, they're not trained to screen passengers, they are not trained to check ID, they're not trained to look at x-rays. So the question was, are they actually helping? So what have you heard? Are they actually hoping?
Sachs: I have not heard of anyone saying, hey, thank you so much for showing me where the line is or making sure I wasn't in the wrong line. Or I have heard that, I have seen that. I've seen pictures of them hanging around, loitering.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Sachs: Checking on their phones, similar to the National Guard here. I often see them in front of Wawa enjoying a cold drink. So I don't know if it's, well, in all fairness, the TSA administrator, former TSA administrators, I did speak with said that long unruly lines is a hazard and a bad actor could come infiltrate in that line, leave a package, you know, if there's chaos, this is a ripe opportunity for some mischief.
I just want I'll leave it at that. So maybe it's a deterrent, seeing a nice agent will keep everybody, you know, best behavior. Or if somebody is thinking of causing a problem pre-security, this might have them think otherwise.
But in terms of actually getting travelers who have an airline ticket through the process, I don't really see what they're doing. Cause as we said before, they're not trained. They don't know how to use the equipment. And it takes eight.
Juravich: Months to train, so they're not going to.
Sachs: Takes up to eight months. Yeah. Yeah, and like real life training, you know, they put them in the airport, they shadow other officers. So it's not just a manual or YouTube video that they can watch.
Juravich: Um, during a commercial break.
Sachs: They need full trading.
Juravich: Now is not the time probably to be training when the TSA agents are already taxed and not being paid. Okay. So people are being told to arrive many hours early for their flights. What are you hearing about checking times and figuring out when you need to go to the airport? Because the height of spring break season is happening right now. So how do you know what to do?
Sachs: Well, you start early. Well, first of all, some airlines are allowing you to change for no extra fee. So if you don't have to travel, you might think about not leaving just yet or extending your trip and taking advantage of that. So the change fee, there might be a fair difference.
I'm not sure each regulation is different, but I would suggest the airports, a lot of them are keeping track of the wait times in live time. TSA used to do that. They are not doing that anymore. So do not rely on any TSA number. I spoke with somebody who it said 18 minutes and she waited two hours.
So don't rely on those numbers, but go online or if your airport has an app and check to see if there's a live wait time. And you can, I mean, truly social media, like the people who are on the ground and complaining is kind of a good way to assess whether it's good or bad, but. I would say a couple hours before your flight, just start looking to see what those numbers are and just get ready to fleet. You know, get ready to pack up and call your Uber or whatever and go. It's better to be there longer obviously than to rush because there's no rushing. And a lot of people aren't missing their flight.
Juravich: Standing in line and have you heard anything from the airlines or the airlines accommodating if people are standing in line and miss their flight or do you are you just out the money or that like or that airlines helping rebook people I guess is what I'm asking
Sachs: They are, there's a rule, unofficial, it's called the flat tire rule. And it's basically if something is out of your control and it's really up to the judgment of the agents. And I think everyone is being very sympathetic and trying to help one another get through this. So my sense is that if you miss it, then they would just try and put you on the next flight.
The problem is flights are so booked because as you said, it's spring break. It's just really high capacity. So my suggestion is if you're in the line and you feel like you're going to miss your flight, just start doing feelers, like reach out to the airlines through social media or by calling while you're online or if you have a partner or a travel mate, send them to the counter, try and get another flight like a couple hours ahead just to secure it.
During these uncertain times, it's best to book a refundable because then you'll have more flexibility in rebooking. And then you can also, if you do make your flight you're able to probably, you know, just. Resolve the issue, not have two flights, but just say I'm gonna take my earlier flight. So the airlines are working with everybody to make sure you can get on a flight and not get stuck at the airport.
Juravich: And I know that you mainly cover travel, but they're supposed to be action like Congress is trying to do something and they're having hearings and they are trying to something by Friday. Basically, is the solution just to figure out how to fund TSA at this point? I do think so.
Sachs: I think we rely so heavily on the airline industry and this is just not one place that we can do without. And as it goes into the second week and third week of not paying these officers, more and more are gonna have to leave. I mean, it's on principle, but it's also just for survival. And so they're going to have to do this.
The airlines are putting pressure on them. I don't know if you saw Delta had some like special counter for congressional representatives and lawmakers and they've closed that desk. They're like, they're putting pressure on them.
Speaker 4: Oh, they're going to make them make.
Juravich: The congress people wait in the line? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, suffer with us. Okay, so on Friday, congress people and all their staff, if they're trying to go home for the two weeks recess, they're going to have to wait in line.
Sachs: They are. Yep. Okay. I can tell them the same tips I'm telling you. I'm like, Oh, do you want me to rebook for you? Because you're going to miss your flight.
Juravich: And as we approach the summer travel season, um, whether or not they figure out how to pay the TSA staff, I just feel like airports are more crowded. There's more people traveling or things are going slower at airports. I don't know. I, I also feel like there's more weather delays, more mechanical issues. Is it, is it just air travel is like really struggling right now? Is that true?
Sachs: It has, yeah, I feel like it's been a long stretch where it's no pun intended and turbulent. In addition, we have really high oil prices, which means we have a really high airfares.
And so we've been so focused on TSA funding or lack of that we've kind of forgotten that, well, I haven't, but there's a war in Iran that is affecting oil prices that is effecting airfare and it's also going to affect everything, cruises, rental, if you rent a car, any kind of travel is going to be affected by these high fuel prices.
And the airlines are feeling it and they are cutting back on routes. Or if you go to Europe, well, not Europe necessarily, but depending on your travels, you might have to go like a long way around the Middle East. And oftentimes long hauls go through Dubai or Doha, but no more. So these are added to the tension and the pressure put on the airline.
Juravich: We've been speaking with Washington Post travel reporter Andrea Sachs. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. And coming up, we're gonna talk with an airline safety advocate about the current chaos at America's airports. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich.
Authorities are looking into a collision between an Air Canada jet and a fire engine resulting in the death of two pilots at New York's LaGuardia Airport. This was the latest news story shining light on the less than flattering air travel industry recently.
In addition to delayed or canceled flights and long TSA wait times, frustration among travelers is increasing at the nation's airports. We're joined now by William McGee, Senior Fellow for Aviation and Travel at the American Economic Liberties Project, a nonprofit organization that advocates for corporate accountability legislation and aggressive enforcement of antitrust regulations. Welcome to All Sides Bill.
William McGee: Thanks very much, Amy. I'm glad to be here.
Juravich: So what do you think of the current happenings at US airports with ICE agents being deployed to help TSA agents at certain airports? What are your thoughts on that?
McGee: There's no doubt in my mind that they took a bad situation and made it much worse. First of all, it is absolutely untenable that frontline TSA employees, the people that in theory are providing security for us and making aviation safer. Again, in theory, we can talk more about that if you'd like, but the fact is nobody should have to work for free.
And this is coming on the of course, of that the longest government shutdown. That in American history that we had just a few months ago in late 2025. So that in and of itself is ridiculous that these folks are not getting paid. Need I point out while we are at war in the Middle East at a time when you would think we would need heightened security at airports, not less security.
Then to say, okay, let's bring in these folks who wear masks. Who are not properly trained. And we could talk all day about ice and the many problems with ice. But the fact is, just from the most rudimentary way, they are not trained to do this work. They are not trying to use this equipment to how to do screening of baggage and proper screening of passengers, et cetera. They know how to throw people on the ground and beat them up, I'll give them that.
But beyond that, they are untrained. So this is all theater. There are folks out there. I wrote a book about 12 years ago called "Detention All Passengers." In that book, there's a whole chapter on security, and I talked to a lot of security experts. This is, of course, post-911, who believe that all of our efforts are basically theater, that it's fifth show.
It's to make passengers feel better, so that when you take off your belt and you take of your shoes and you do all that, you think, well, it's an inconvenience, but at least we're making ourselves safer. But what we're seeing now... To have these these ice agents walking around airports with weapons It is pure theater. I mean, this is this is just ridiculous quite frankly
Juravich: Yeah, and they're basically being like traffic managers. They're helping with the lines, guiding people around the airport. They may be standing at the security, making sure people don't go out the wrong exit and that kind of thing. But they're not able to check IDs. They're not trained on the x-ray machines. So they're not really helping with making the line shorter, right?
McGee: No, and now think about it, if you're a TSA agent, I'm sure if you or I or anybody else was working for free for several weeks, we're now in day 39 of this situation, you're going to be pretty angry. Now you're seeing folks that are getting paid, the ICE agents are getting payed, and they're coming in and they're not really doing your job or helping with your job, they're just standing in the way. I know I'd be a little bitter, regardless of where you stand politically on the role the bikes. It's just, it's just it's really it's the height of absurdity.
Juravich: Well, in addition to the overworked and understaffed and not paid TSA agents, what else concerns you about airport security? Because you just mentioned that, you know, you go through the checkpoints, but you said it's not that secure. So what does concern you there?
McGee: Sure. If you were to Google airline security, I'm sure that about 98% of the hits that you're going to get have to do with passenger screening. And that's a part of it. I think serious people that take this seriously would say, okay, there's a role for that. Certainly you don't want firearms getting through, et cetera. But that's really where it begins and ends in the United States.
I've spent many, many years, more than two decades. Advocating against and writing about an issue called airline maintenance outsourcing. Every airline in the United States outsources aircraft maintenance that they used to do in-house. And much of it goes overseas. So these airplanes are in places like El Salvador, China, Singapore.
So let's think about it for a moment. You and I are getting on a flight today at a U.S. Airport. We take off the shoes. We take of the belts. So does our four-year-old toddler. So does grandmother. We do all that. We do everything they ask us to do. That's all on the front end of the airport. What's happening behind the doors that say no admittance?
Who was servicing that aircraft? Was that airplane in El Salvador this morning where there is no TSA presence, no security presence whatsoever? I spoke to a mechanic a couple of years back, and he was telling me that an airplane came back from El Salvador to JFK airport, and there was a problem with the galley. The flight attendants had a problem with the coffee pots or something, and he opened up a panel in the gally and out fell a- military duffel bag, and it was stuffed with cocaine, okay?
So it was put on that airplane that morning. And he said to me, well, in this case, it was cocaine. It could have been weapons. It could've been explosives. Who's guarding the airplanes where the real threats are? Who are the people that are doing the servicing, the laboratories, the water, the fuel, all the rest of it? How much screening are they getting? So while we're taking off our shoes and belts, I'm much more concerned. About where the airplane's been and who's servicing that.
Juravich: Last year, in testimony that you gave before the US Senate, you said the airline industry that you began to work in no longer exists. So, I mean, you went through some of the biggest changes and you just talked about a couple of them there with the maintenance of the airplanes and the checking of the airplane. But can you also talk about US airlines being more concentrated than ever? There's not much competition. Tell me more about that.
McGee: Sure, sure. I'll give you some context, Amy. And that's what we're all about at American Economic Liberties Project is trying to fight corporate concentration and power. The U.S. Airline industry had about 75 scheduled passenger airlines in the mid-80s. Today we have 11. We used to have 10, 12, even I'm not talking ancient history, I'm talking about 30 years ago, go back to the 1990s. We had about 12 major carriers. Today, we have four.
And we have a level of concentration that we have never seen in American history. Everybody knows that Americans invented the airplane in 1903 with the Wright brothers. We also invented the airline industry. A guy in Tampa sold a ticket for the first time in 1914, took somebody across Tampa Bay. Well, since 1914, we have ever had a level of concentration like this.
The big four airlines, American, Delta, United, and Southwest, and their regional partners, American Eagle and those folks. They control 80%. That's a level we have never even come close to. And so it is an oligopoly. And one of the great under-reported stories of the last 20, 25 years is that the big three, American, Delta, and United, they don't compete with each other on price anymore.
Right now, there's a little war going on at Chicago with American and United but that's a temporary thing. But over time, they just don't complete. So we are dependent on these smaller carriers that a lot of people don't like and maybe don't want to fly anyway. Spirit Allegiant Frontier, but without them, I guarantee you we'd all be paying more the concentration affects everything and not only affects higher fares and Fewer choices obviously, but it also affects service.
You know, I testified in Congress when Dr. Dow a couple of years ago you may recall was dragged off a plane beaten bloody given a concussion because United wanted his seat and Six months later United stock price went up after one of the worst public relations debacles a corporation could imagine That would not have happened 20, 30 years ago when there was more competition. If you don't like an airline, what are you supposed to do? In many parts of the country, you have no choice.
You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News and we're talking about the current state of the airline industry with Bill McGee, Senior Fellow for Aviation and Travel at the Economic Liberties Project.
Juravich: So Bill, yeah, the idea that there's nothing you can do about it, I mean, I know someone who has to fly from Columbus to Washington, D.C., you know, basically every other weekend. And there's only one direct flight option, you know, that fits with the schedule. Like, you know so they have to take American because if they want a direct flight, otherwise they can go to Atlanta and then come back up to D.C. But that doesn't make any sense, right? So what happened to the competition? Why is there only one flight?
McGee: It's all of the, we have seen, you know, this unprecedented levels of mergers and bankruptcies. You know, the smaller airlines, many of them have gone bankrupt and shut down. But for the larger ones, you now, I testified against what we call the mega mergers where the six largest airlines in the United States in a period of a short time, about five or six years became the three largest.
That is Delta acquired Northwest, United acquired Continental. And American acquired US Airways. And when I was testifying against the American US Airwaves merger, the CEOs sitting next to me, their argument was basically, well, you let them do it, so you gotta let us do it. And I pointed out, well, I'm the youngest of 11 children, so I mastered that argument by the time I was an adolescent.
Well, you'll let them stay out all weekend, so you have to let me, right? That doesn't seem to me. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like very weak legal precedent to say that's how we're working. So these mergers all be get mergers and, you know, as one lawyer said, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once it's out. We have really decimated the industry by putting so much power in the hands of four companies and they are not serving us well. These are public utilities and that's how we look at it.
So at American Economic Liberties Project, we put out a paper two years ago called "How to Fix Flying." You can find it on our website. It's available for anybody for free. And we are saying... That airline deregulation, which took effect in 1978, has not served the American people and is nothing but a string of broken promises.
We were promised in 1978 that by pulling the government out of the business of running airlines and allowing the quote unquote free market to run airlines, that we were gonna see more carriers, lower fares, better service, they'd be competing against each other and the marketplace would just be a wonderful thing. It's an awful thing. We have less competition, less service.
We just had a strength since 2007 of only two new scheduled passenger airlines. That is Breeze and Avello that started up a couple of years ago. That is the longest stretch, it's 13 years. It's the longest, I went back, I did all the research. Since 1914, since the industry started, that's the longer stretch without new entrants.
We are not seeing new carriers come in because Wall Street doesn't want to give them the financing, because they love having money in American United and Delta to watch them, you know. It's an oligopoly, and that's why your friend can't get nonstop flights. That's why hubs have closed, not in small and rural places. We're not talking about communities with small populations.
We're talking places like Cincinnati, Cleveland, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and yes, Columbus, you know? That once had hubs. And I am working right now in speaking to the Government Accountability Office on an investigation they're doing. I'm very thrilled they're going it. We were we were very eager to see this happen and they're looking at the effects of this, you know, when it when a hub closes down Jobs go away corporations move away they're not gonna have their sales people doing what your friend is doing and you know flying around all day with connections and So the industry, you, know when there's a problem when there is 9-eleven when there s COVID when there' s a great recession When that happens the the airline CEOs come hat in hand And suddenly they're talking like Che Guevara when they get before Congress. They're like, well, you have to bail us out.
And we the taxpayers do time after time. But what are we getting in return for it? They keep all the profits when things are good. And when things things are bad, we bail them out. Well, we need accountability and we say it's time to regulate the industry again in a sensible way so that it serves everyone.
The post office model is everybody pays the same price for a stamp in order to send a letter anywhere within the United States. And we need to look at airline industries in a way that it's not all completely profit driven so that millions of Americans are left out.
Juravich: Are you so you're proposing more like a post office model for for the for the Department of Transportation whenever it comes to airlines Is that like I guess what I'm asking is is like do we need reform at the Department Of Transportation the Federal Aviation Administration? Where yeah, where does that where does this come from or is it like the president needs buy-in?
McGee: Well, we need reform up and down the line. I mean, you know, the Federal Aviation Administration, in my book, "Attention to All Passengers," I speak about the fact, you know, that they are responsible for safety. And the nickname that frontline FAA inspectors and airline people use and that I used when I worked in the airlines is the tombstone agency, meaning that they far too often act only after there's a tragedy and there are deaths and they're forced back.
The DOT, we are looking at the captured agency when you look at the DOT. And the current DOT secretary, Sean Duffy, has done an awful job. I just wrote a sub stack about it recently. He is clearly beholden to airlines. He himself, believe it or not, is a former airline lobbyist. At one point, he lobbied for the three largest American Delta and United. And so this is unacceptable. I mean, they are trying to strip away the few consumer protections we have in this country. We already lag the rest of the world in consumer protections. And they are beholden to corporations and not to the American people.
Juravich: I seem to remember there was like a passenger bill of rights. Was that Pete Buttigieg when he was in charge of the Department of Transportation? Did he do that? Yes. Yeah.
McGee: Yes, we, you know, we worked closely with his office and we saw some things that we had never seen and we gave him full credit. Earlier, I had criticized him for not doing enough, and then he came around and he was terrific. And I stood beside him in Washington's National Airport when he announced, for the first time, mandatory cash refunds, automatic, so you don't have to go through jump through hoops and call people and send emails and all rest of it.
Juravich: And get flight credits that expire and so yeah.
McGee: Yeah, and so, you know, we already lack Europe we lag Europe Canada I could name 20 countries that we lag in these in this area now Sean Duffy comes in under under Donald Trump and They are trying to strip away the existing protections, let alone add new protections that we sorely need So we have a bit of a crisis
Juravich: And there's also a deficit of pilots. Pilots are required right now to retire at 65, but if they're still physically fit and capable, shouldn't they be able to stay on the job longer? I don't know who makes that rule, but is that something that needs to change?
McGee: It's the FAA. You know, when we talk about a pilot shortage, every time I do, I put air quotes up in the air, you know, because- Is it not true? Well, I think there is a shortage, there's no doubt. But the question is why? This is the, you know... For the country that invented airplanes and has the largest military in the world, why are we suddenly, after a hundred and something years, having a shortage?
What we do is, we don't have a shortage of commercial pilots per se, those that want to get into the field. We have a storage that those that don't want to fly for regional airlines... You know for $30,000 a year or $50,000 a year after spending a lot of time paying for school to go, you know, go learn to be pilots And so the smaller airlines and the regional airlines American Eagle Delta Connection United Express Those are apples and grapes. I mean those are not the same level of pay Etc and so we have to address that as well You know if you buy a ticket on them on American Airlines and you're on American Eagle you assume it's the same level of safety, experience, comfort, et cetera. And there is a big gap between the regional partners and the big airlines, the main lines, as they're called.
Juravich: If you were to prioritize things for fixing the mess that we're in, what would you tackle first? You listed a whole lot of things in the past 10 minutes, but I know, yeah, tell me what you would tackle first if you had the magic wand.
McGee: Yeah, it's an excellent question. I think the first thing we have to do is get money out of this. I think it sounds like I'm echoing sentiments in a lot of other industries, where the combination of lobbying and the combination of the Supreme Court treating corporations as citizens, in my view, that is the single biggest factor in what has gone wrong.
So the consolidation flows from that, the mergers and the acquisitions. The bankruptcies flow from that, the awful service flows from that. The safety problems, the security problems. And so this consolidation and deregulation. Deregulation is a failed experiment. We've given it now 48 years.
And I think if you went out into any airport right now with a clipboard, I'd be happy to go with you. And we asked the first 500 people we see, has deregulations been a success? Are you happy with the airline industry? We all know the answer we're gonna get. The airlines will lie and tell you, oh, our surveys say people have never been happier. Who are they? I always ask, give me names. I want to call them myself.
So deregulation has failed and consolidation has failed us. But the real answer is it's the lobbying. It's the money. It's corporate money. And this administration, even worse than President Trump's first administration, this is the poster child for everything wrong with lobbying. And we have a DOT secretary right now, Sean Duffy. Who is clearly responding only to the wishes of airline executives.
And when we, as consumer advocates, asked to meet with him recently, we were told, no, he doesn't have time for us. OK, well, what has he done instead? He's gone out to airports and said, the real problem is civility. We're not dressing up enough when we travel. Like, excuse me, you're the only person in the country with the authority to do something about awful travel. And you're blaming us? Are you blaming the victims? Because we're not wearing ties and suits like we did in 1954, I don't think so.
Juravich: We've been speaking with William McGee, Senior Fellow for Aviation and Travel at the American Economic Liberties Project. Thank you so much for your time today.
McGee: Thank you Amy, it was a pleasure.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk about new approaches to travel with the New York Times travel contributor. That is when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to all sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich.
The turmoil at the nation's airports may have you thinking twice about flying the friendly skies. Understaffed and overworked TSA staff aren't the only concerns. The current conflict in the Middle East is raising oil prices, which in turn could raise airline fares.
Joining us now to talk about how you should still travel on a budget despite the possible rise in rates is Elaine Glusac, a frugal traveler columnist for the New York Times travel section. Welcome to All Sides Elaine. Hi Amy, thanks for having me.
Juravich: So how will higher oil prices impact the cost of airline tickets and are we seeing it already?
Elaine Glusac: Yes, jet fuel counts for about 20 or 30% of an airline's operating costs. So other than staffing, it's their biggest expense. So you can expect them to pass that on. Already, we're seeing airfares up about 10% right now since the invasion of Iran.
Juravich: So, okay, so the airline costs are up about 10%. Does the airline pass those costs on to travelers? I mean, obviously, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Glusac: That's exactly what I meant. We're already seeing airfares of 10%, which we think is them passing on.
Juravich: Extra costs. And how do we plan for those extra costs? So if we're traveling a few months from now, would it be better to wait on purchasing airline tickets and just see what happens? Or should we be buying them now because it could only get worse?
Glusac: That's the million dollar question. I mean, nobody knows if how long this will last, will it get worse, will it better? If it gets better, airfares could go down. Should I buy now and buy the higher ticket? That is the biggest problem. I do have a solution for that.
I think the most important thing for travelers right now is to look for a ticket in which they can get their money back, if not as a full cash refund, at least as a credit that they can use for future travel. This would cover you in case A, you decide I don't want to travel, things are too crazy right now.
You know, B, you find that lower, you know, if the fares do go down, you buy a higher ticket now, you see the faers go lower later, you can cancel that higher price fare, buy the lower price fare and keep the credit for future travel between them. So right now, I think it's really important to have that airline ticket that gives you that flexibility.
Juravich: So when you buy the ticket with the flexibility though, that ticket tends to cost more than other tickets. So, but you say it's worth it for the less risk so that you have that safety net where you can change it if you need to.
Glusac: I do, I think there's not that much of a difference between say a basic economy ticket, which really gives you no rights, and an economy ticket. So we're really talking about an economy fair. So maybe you're spending $20, $30 more depending on the routing, but you're going to have so much more security, safety and control over your own airline experience.
Juravich: Besides talking about oil prices and the airlines needing to pass that cost on to consumers, I'm using needing in air quotes, but they do pass that, you know, what other costs get passed on to the travelers that airlines are having to deal with?
Glusac: Yes, I think what like consumers are not privy to is like, how are they passing on these extra costs? You know, they can't just double, you know, maybe oil has gone up, you know, 80%. I don't know the actual figure, but they can raise an airline ticket that much. You know?
People just won't travel. You know if a hundred dollar fare goes to five hundred dollars, you're not going to travel. So, but, they have a lot of levers that they can pull and we've all seen this with the extra nickel and diming that they do. And so at any time they could raise the fees for checked bags.
They could raise fees for your seat assignment. They might decide that business travelers are less price sensitive. So they might raise those fares on the higher end tickets. There's just a lot of things that they could do. I just counsel people when they're looking and comparing air fares to think about, am I checking a bag? Do I want a seat? And make sure you're comparing fares that bundles everything in that you're going to need.
You're listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News.
We're talking about budget travel with Elaine Glusac, frugal traveler columnist for the New York Times.
Juravich: We were just talking to someone who works for a nonprofit who is lobbying for basically more competition in the airline industry. And he was just basically saying that the airlines have way too much power. And I mean, with what you just mentioned, the way they nickel and dime you for bags and for seats and being able to pick your seat and all of that. Do you feel like, over the past few years especially, since there's not enough competition, airlines can just charge whatever they want?
Glusac: Yeah, I mean, to a certain extent, yes, they they do have a lot of pricing power. But again, I think there's a limit at which people will just say, no, we're not doing that. We're going to drive. And I think I think, you know, savvy consumers have really found ways around that.
You get a lot power if you get like the airline credit card. So if you live in a city that's a hub for an airline, it pays that, you know, that ninety five dollars that you pay to have that credit card pays for probably one trip. If it's like you and a friend. Traveling and you need to check a bag, you're already covered. So there are ways around it. I think they forced us to become very savvy travelers.
Juravich: What about using travel sites for airline tickets? Is it better to go through like a Travelocity or, you know, one of those type of sites or should you buy directly from the airline?
Glusac: I personally like to buy directly from the airline because I think that I have more autonomy over that ticket. You are often tempted to go through an online travel agency, which is what Expedia Travelocity are, because they might have a slightly lower fare.
But again, you're going to have to go to that middleman anytime you need to talk to the airline. I find that that is a little bit of a roadblock and could create complications down the road. If everything goes smoothly... No problem, that's great, you saved 20 bucks. For me, I just like to have more control and want the airline to listen to me when I call. I don't want them to tell me, hey, you have to go back to Expedia to take care of this.
Juravich: Do people still use travel agents? Is there still a need for travel agents, or are most people planning their own travel now?
Glusac: I mean, most people are planning their own flights, you know, and I would say travel agents, they don't want to book your Thanksgiving trip back to see grandma. That's not what they do. I do think that they are true travel professionals.
So if I had a really complicated, long or very expensive trip that I wanted to take, I would probably engage the services of a travel advisor because that's sort of their expertise. Let's say I wanted to go on safari, or I was, you know, doing some... Crazy trip to Australia. I might want their advice these days on routing my flights because I don't want to go through a Middle Eastern hub, things like that.
Travel agents also have their own special magic. If you are booking a cruise, they are particularly strong. They have a lot of buying power with cruise companies. So they can get you a lot extra perks. I'm talking about cabin credits and cabin upgrades. Um, so there's a lot of reasons to use a travel agent to do those kinds of transactions as well as like anything, as I said, long, complicated or expensive.
Juravich: As a travel columnist, what's been top of mind for you recently with hearing about all of these long lines because of TSA problems at airports? What is that, what are you writing about? What are you thinking about there?
Glusac: Oh my gosh, so much anxiety and I, um, I feel it myself. I was, I was just traveling last weekend and you know, that advice to get to your airport two hours before a flight for a domestic, you know flight was always like, come on, that's so much time. I have TSA pre, I'm pre-check. I know I'm going to get through quickly.
Well, I just did a flight last week and, um we did give ourselves the full two hours, before we got there for domestic flight and we got through. Okay. But it took longer and it was stressful. And frankly, I'm not looking for extra stress in my life. So if I'm a traveler, I think I'm gonna go extremely early and then I'm just gonna hang out in the airport, you know, they have wifi, I can watch them.
Juravich: Do you find that more people are trying to think about driving? I mean, we don't have the ability to take very many trains here in Ohio, but are people more thinking about other ways of traveling, because airports and airlines just seem so complicated and unreliable now?
Glusac: Yeah, that's what we've heard from some companies like Touro, which is like a person-to-person car rental business, that their business is up and people are reconsidering driving these days. Of course, you have the very high price of gas, but you also don't have that unexpected, oh, I didn't make my trip because the TSA line was so long. You have a lot more freedom in your own car.
Juravich: Do you find people or do you recommend, whenever you're giving people tips, to give a buffer day on each side of flights now because things are so unreliable at airports of even getting on your flight? Do you need more time, extra time?
Glusac: I guess, I think that's situational. I think it depends on which airport you're going out of. I just flew out of the very small Juno Airport in Alaska. No problem. I mean, luckily there was nobody in line and I did thank the TSA agent working there.
So I think, it depends in where you're flying from. I think the advice to pad your trip is very important if you're doing something like flying. I'm flying to Barcelona to catch a cruise. Or I actually am flying to Amsterdam next month to get a biking trip. Well, I did give myself that extra day in advance and I'm so glad I did now because who knows, I just sort of expecting to be delayed.
Juravich: Right, because if you're trying to get to Florida because a cruise ship's going to leave and you get stuck at the airport and then your cruise ship leaves without you, then your whole trip is completely crazy. What is your favorite? Do you have a favorite money saving travel tip that you tell people or that you write about that most people don't know about?
Glusac: I feel like a lot of my tips are really basic, but I don't, you know, and like people just sort of forget. Like they, I think traveling with a budget mind requires some planning. You know, you might go to the airport and then realize you didn't eat breakfast. And then you have to like buy, you know, a $30 breakfast at the airport.
I'm like really big on snacks and food and picnic food. I try not to buy anything at the air port. I think that's really key. Everything is super inflated, you know, as everyone knows who's listening here who's been to an airport.
Um, I also look for really great restaurants, um, from Michelin, but I don't look at their Michelin stars. They have a secondary list called Bib Gourmand. So if you're a foodie, look at that. These are really great restaurant, um at good prices. Um, and let's see, lastly, I would say I spend a lot of time sort of not looking at the major bucket list attractions in a destination.
I really find a lot of value in discovering neighborhoods, going off the beaten path. You're gonna have like more of a look at local life, which I think is really fun. And that's naturally gonna be less expensive and you're likely to support mom and pop shops. And again, I think you're gonna have this great sense of discovery with local people, as opposed to, you know, with the masses, you know at the Eiffel Tower, which you do wanna see, I grant you that. But you know you can get out.
Juravich: Got to see the Eiffel Tower and then get out, got it. We've been speaking with Elaine Glusac, frugal traveler columnist for the New York Times Travel section. Thank you so much for joining us today, Elaine. Thanks for having me.
And you've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News.
And I wanna say thanks to our staff, producers Marcus Charleston and Erin Esmont Rabinowitz, student producers Iza Huck, Colin Simpson and Brianna Fortunat. We also have a student producer at Denison University, Chiara Berson, and our high school student producer is Henry Allen.
Video production by The Ohio Channel, board operation by Chris Johnston and Cameron Howard.
Thanks for joining us today for All Sides on 89.7 NPR News, I'm Amy Juravich.