Columbus is the only major U.S. city without a train station, but that could change.
Interest in passenger rail connecting Ohio’s major cities and the bordering states is growing.
On the heels of the recent Ohio Rail Summit, we’re talking about the latest updates on the push for passenger rail in Ohio.
Guests:
- Marc Magliari, senior public relations manager, Amtrak
- Paraq Agrawal, chief mobility and development officer, Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission
- John Esterly, executive director, All Aboard Ohio
Transcript
This transcript is generated with AI. To ensure its accuracy, review the audio file.
Amy Juravich: Welcome to All Sides with Amy Juravich. While the Northeast Corridor is still the most popular Amtrak line, interest in passenger rail is growing. Amtrac experienced record ridership last year and new lines have exceeded expectations. But what about the future of Amtra in Ohio and in Columbus? In the fall, Toledo will host the premier passenger rail conference in the nation. Was the selection of an Ohio city for this important event a predictor of what's to come? Joining us now is Amtrak senior public relations manager, Marc Magliari. Welcome to All Sides Marc.
Marc Magliari: Good morning, Amy. It's primary election day, I understand, in Ohio. I never had a chance to vote there since we moved when I was in junior high. Oh. It's a big day across the country. There's several states that have primaries. Hope people get out and vote if there's a race where they like.
Juravich: Yes, it is. It is primary election day. You have till 730 tonight to vote. All right. Back to the trains. We're not voting on trains. President Trump.
Magliari: But in Ohio has, remember back when, when Governor Strickland was running for re-election and John Kasich was running against him, part of the campaign had to do with trains. And that outcome has put Ohio where it is now with service across the northern tier overnight, two trains each way, and service through Cincinnati only six times a week. You were on the brink of having more. And the folks in Michigan and the folks in Illinois got the money that Ohio turned back.
So elections, whether it's the mayor or a state legislator or a city council member or a governor make a difference because that's how the democracy is supposed to work. You vote for people who say they're gonna do things and they do hopefully what they say they are gonna do.
Juravich: Yeah, if memory serves correct, Governor Kasich, once he became governor, turned down rail money, right?
Magliari: He did, he turned down several dozens of millions and part of it was that the service was mischaracterized. The funding program that supported this out of Congress was called the Intercity High Speed and Passenger Rail funding. But it was never going to be really high speed and what it did was arm people who were opposed to it saying, it's not going to high speed, and it wasn't going to be. So.
The fact is that there were some positioning issues in that. The same thing happened in Wisconsin, by the way, when Governor Walker was elected there. But the fact is it's a different time now. And there's a better federal program out there for starting passenger rail than we've ever seen before. And it's still on the books in lots of places.
69 places across the country are all competing for some of that money, including the plans in Ohio. I understand you'll have a Morpsey representative in the next segment. They've been a driving force on this connecting Columbus on Midwest Connect from Pittsburgh across to Columbus up to Fort Wayne, where they're involved very heavily there and on to Chicago. That's a live issue.
And three C's and a D, which is Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, via Dayton, although the mayor of Crestline likes to call it four C's and a D. Because she would go through her time. That's a live option too. Those are both understudy, those are both moving forward. And there's plenty of examples around the country where we've started service in the last couple of years where it's amazing the number of people who want to ride well beyond expectation.
Juravich: Well, a while back, President Trump had proposed some budget cuts for Amtrak and this could mean reduced service and reliability while placing the future of passenger rail at risk. But more recently, there was news from U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. He announced in April $2 billion as an investment into the modernization of America's rail infrastructure. So what does that $2 billion mean for Amtrak?
Magliari: Well, that's across the rail industry, right? And primarily in our country, certainly outside the Northeast, our trains run on tracks owned by the freight railroads. So the better the freight railroads are beneath our wheels, the better it is for our service. So that's very important.
And having a relationship with the folks who own the tracks, which primarily in Ohio are two railroad companies, CSX and NS, having them be vital companies that are doing great work hauling stuff enables them to also haul people. And we work with those two around the country. One of them, CS X, hosts our train that we just started last August between Mobile and New Orleans, where that train is really exceeding expectations. So. It's a mixed network and we're using their tracks, but the healthier they are, the healthier our service can be.
Juravich: Now, my understanding is that the Trump administration pulled $2 billion in funding from a rail project in California and is redistributing that money kind of nationwide. So what's Amtrak's position on that, the pulling the money from California to give it to other places?
Magliari: Well, we don't take positions on political issues, but certainly a bigger, better passenger rail network in the US benefits all of us. And the California issue is still very much alive. They're still pressing forward in California. That was meant to be a high speed network that voters approved, linking basically the San Francisco Bay Area and Los Angeles.
It's not been moving at a pace that anyone there is satisfied with. And if you make promises, and you don't keep them or you make promises and you're having trouble keeping them, you lay yourself open for things to go badly. That's why calling the old Ohio plan a high-speed rail plan when it wasn't enabled the opponents to say, well, wait a minute, you're not telling us the truth.
That that's why things like our new service that's only two years old between St. Paul and Chicago, we put out ridership projections, but we keep exceeding the ridership I think we're better off over-delivering than under-promising.
Juravich: The money, federal money, is from the Federal Railroad Administration. I mean, does Amtrak have much sway in where the money goes whenever it comes to the Federal Railroad administration?
Magliari: These grants are administered, you're exactly right Amy, by the FRA. And they decide of those 69, for example, places around the country that were in step one of a plan to increase rail service, they picked those 69. And, they're going to pick the folks who are making it to step two, that they largely have, and then they will pick.
Uh... Who gets to step three and uh... The goal here is to have a a defensible and explainable and doable program to get from step one to step two step two to step 3 and it's uh... It's organized that way for a reason so we don't wind up with a lot of blue sky and big bucks and nothing happens
Juravich: So pivoting to Ohio, here in Ohio, the future of passenger rail involves routes connecting major cities in Ohio to the rest of the country, to other states around us. There are two major passenger rail proposals in development right now. You mentioned both of them. They're both in step two. It's called the Midwest Connect, and that one would connect Chicago, Fort Wayne, Columbus, and Pittsburgh. And then the other one is called the Three Cs and a D, Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland. Does Amtrak? Both of them are in step two. So does Amtrak prefer one proposal over the other? Is Amtrap involved in both proposals?
Magliari: Well, we are involved in both proposals, but we're not in the business of, if you will, picking winners. We're working closely with the Ohio Rail Development Commission and with Morpsey on both of these. In addition, there's one other thing out there I should mention. That's our train, the Cardinal, that runs six times a week three days each way through Cincinnati.
There's another plan afoot to make that train daily and we're working on that one directly with the FRA. So Cincinnati would have a train every day instead of three times a day each way. So those are all very live options and they're all in study. They're all moving forward. And we're working with all parties.
That's why we attended. We had our vice chair of our board of directors in Columbus with me and others a couple Saturdays ago at the All Aboard Ohio meeting. You're going to hear from John, I guess, later in this hour. And we're working with everyone who wants to have more service. It might not even be us running it.
I mean, there's not been an operator decision for some of these, but we believe there should be more passenger rail service out there and more choice besides I-71 and I-75 and I 70 to get around Ohio and everywhere else.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. We're talking about the expansion of Amtrak with senior public relations manager for Amtrak, Marc Magliari. You mentioned this idea of changing this train in Cincinnati from being three days a week to every day. What would it connect Cincinnati to? Which city? Where does it go?
Magliari: The Cardinal rock operates now three times a week from Chicago down to Indianapolis to Cincinnati across Northern, Kentucky Through Charlottesville to Washington then up the Northeast corridor to DC and from DC up to New York City So that that train Is running today and it is often sold out because it only runs three times A week each way in fact a lot of our trains around the country are selling out not just because of the gasoline prices, not just the airline issues that have taken place, whether it's a collapsing budget airline or just the hassles of.
Flight because people are understanding that windshield time is wasted time. You can't really get anything done, I mean my son has a Tesla, one of my sons.
Speaker 4: And
Magliari: and it might have some self-driving ability, but I'm not taking my eyes off the road when I'm in that car. That you can be more productive and do everything safely on a train you really shouldn't be doing while driving. And if you give people a choice, they might not pick it every time, but they'll pick it when it makes sense for them and they'll have a choice.
Right now there isn't one. You can't really fly from Columbus to Cleveland or Columbus to Cincinnati or Dayton, right? And the intercity bus network is very, very small now versus when I started this job 25 years ago. So your choices are driving, walking, borrowing a car, renting one or staying home.
Juravich: You mentioned, you know, we talked about the Midwest connect route and the three season a D both being in step two of this process. And then you said that there's a study happening about whether to make that train in Cincinnati every day. Why does it take so long to make these decisions?
Magliari: Well, we have a process here in our country and where we have things like environmental clearance, right? If people sometimes compare what happens in the US to what happens China, where they can just mow down neighborhoods, push people out of the way, and do whatever the central government thinks is right, that's not our process here, in the U.S. Is it methodical? Yes. Is it fast? No. Is it worth it? Absolutely.
Juravich: And you mentioned rising gas prices, and we talked about how Amtrak had a record-breaking year last year, and gas prices were not as high as they are now. So how do you expect gas prices if they continue to see these record- breaking levels? What's that going to do to your ridership? What's your anticipation there?
Magliari: Well, we're up about 5% year to date. So on this trajectory, we are going to beat last year's record. And in a lot of places, the only thing that's really holding ridership down is not enough fleet. I mean, that train that runs, I've mentioned, from the Gulf Coast, between Mobile and New Orleans, that train sells out repeatedly.
We've already crossed 100,000 customers on it. And we wind up turning people away. Same thing on our new service between St. Paul and Chicago. We believe, and the states who sponsor these services believe these trains are too small. But there's not been a steady stream of money to build new trains.
It's not like, you know, someone has a plant waiting for us to order trains and they're going to be there next week or there's a used car lot where we can buy trains. So we're very much constrained on fleet. That's why we announced a couple of weeks ago we're refleeting finally some of these overnight trains that go through Cleveland and Toledo and Cincinnati. And some of the states and we are refleeting some of the other networks where we're using equipment that
Juravich: What does refleading mean?
Magliari: Replacing the train, replacing the trains because some of the trains we're using are using equipment that's 50 years old and you can drive a 50 year old car every day if you want but you'll find it to be more and more expensive to maintain and we've added power outlets we've had at wi-fi to these trains but when it's built in it's better than just tacking it on so
And we're going to expand with the help of these states, the amount of fleet, the size of the trains, the number of seats that are running between these markets to help meet some of the demand, because the demand is there.
Juravich: Back to Ohio just for a minute. I mentioned in the introduction that in the fall, Toledo's gonna host the premier passenger rail conference in the nation. Can you tell me about trains in Toledo? Cause we just, we mentioned Cincinnati several times. We've talked about, you know, adding trains here in Columbus, but what are trains like in Toleto?
Magliari: Toledo has what Cleveland has, which is four trains a day each way, two that go to Chicago, the other two wind up in New York and Boston and in Washington DC. And just like Cleveland and just like Cincinnati, they go through there very late at night or very early in the morning because their schedules are timed to connect with trains at either end.
So Ohio has been in the middle. And because it's in the middle and the trains aren't really Ohio-oriented, you get what you get because the trains are going further. The way these services really do well is when they're built for the market. Just like that Borealis train between St. Paul and Chicago, it runs between St Paul and Chicago on a schedule that's built for those three states.
What's being talked about with Midwest Connect or three or four Cs and a D is the same kind of thing. A schedule oriented to the cities it serves, not just being cities along the way, which are important and the services valuable that connects across the country, but it's Ohio oriented. State-sponsored services are state-centric. The states tell us what schedules they want, they tell us which fares to charge, they tells us what beer and what sandwich to have in the cafe car. There's a reason why there's muffalettas on that Mardi service between Mobile and New Orleans, that's what the local people want.
Juravich: But Ohio doesn't get a say because we're in the middle of the line, right?
Magliari: Well, on a national train, no, but if you have a state-sponsored train, which is what all these conversations are about three-year season a day, or Midwest Connect, the states tell us what they want. And our job is to deliver what they what. And if they want Dr. Pepper and not Dr. Pepper, they tell us. That's why the train that goes through Oklahoma and Texas has Dr.Pepper on it, because that's what the states want.
Juravich: Well, we've been speaking with Amtrak Senior Public Relations Manager Marc Magliari. Thank you so much for your time today, Mark.
Magliari: Always happy to be with you, Amy. Happy to be on public radio.
Juravich: Alright, thank you. Coming up the Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission joins us with updates on connecting Ohio's major cities via rail. That is When All Sides Continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides. I'm your host, Amy Juravich. Columbus is one of the fastest growing cities in the country. It is also the largest city in the U.S. With no rail-based public transit. No passenger rail, no subway, no street cars. But interest in passenger rail connecting Ohio's major cities is growing.
At a recent Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission event on expanding passenger rail in Ohio, former U. S. Transportation Secretary, Ray LaHood, said, it's going to happen. We're talking about the latest in passenger rail developments this hour on All Sides. And joining us now is Paraq Agrawal, Chief Mobility and Development Officer for the Mitohe Regional Planning Commission, also known as MORPSI. Welcome to All Sides!
Paraq Agrawal: Good morning, Amy. Thank you for inviting me.
Juravich: So that former Transportation Secretary LaHood seems confident. He says passenger rail is going to happen. Are you that optimistic?
Agrawal: Yes, as the former Secretary of Railways basically mentioned, all the stars are aligning right now. There is so much energy in the passenger rail world and we are very optimistic that the central Ohio residents will soon be taking the train to go to Chicago, to go to Cleveland and to go Cincinnati.
Juravich: Okay, so there are two possible rail projects that both involve Columbus, and they're both at step two of this big three-step process, right? One is called the Midwest Connect that connects Chicago, Fort Wayne, Columbus, and Pittsburgh. The other one is called Three C's and a D. That's Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland. Is one of these projects further along than the other, or are they kind of tied?
Agrawal: No, Amy, so both the projects are have completed step one, and we will be starting with the step two. What is step two? Step two is basically the service delivery plan that will be started in fall of this year. When I talk about service delivery, plan, it talks about how my how many trains there will be, what would be the frequency of the trains, where will the stations be, how much will it cost, what will be the operational cost, What would be the capital costs?
So I know there are so many questions surrounding the Passenger Rail project and all these questions will be answered through our service delivery plan that will be starting this fall. So both the projects, the service delivery plans will be started this fall
Juravich: All right, so if both are starting this fall, can we do two simultaneously?
Agrawal: Exactly. Yes. So both the projects are part of something called the corridor ID program of federal railroad administration. The state Ohio rail development commission is leading the three C plus D corridor and more obviously working with city of Fort Wayne is leading the Midwest connect.
Juravich: Okay, so if I was to ask you if you have a favorite, then are you supposed to say that Midwest Connect is your preferred plan, because that's yours?
Agrawal: I will say that both the projects will benefit the Ohio residents so Morpsey is rooting for both the project.
Juravich: Okay, but how did you end up, how did Morpsey end up as the lead for the Midwest Connect instead of the other one?
Agrawal: So again, State of Ohio is taking the lead for 3C plus D.
Juravich: Because it's all Ohio, I guess. It's all ohio.
Agrawal: But we do work very closely with the state, although they are the leads, but we work very close with them. And the Fort Wayne is the lead on the Midwest Connect project. And Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission is taking the lead for the Ohio side, working with our central Ohio communities.
Juravich: Um, now you meant we talked about how they're both heading into step two. You said you'll be doing a lot of work on step two in the fall. Um, I just was talking with the public relations, Mark from Amtrak about it's just, it's such a long process and he explained why it's a long process and I do understand there's regulations, there's thought put into it, but it just, It really feels like a long process. Do you feel like we've been doing this forever?
Agrawal: Exactly. So this is what we hear from all the residents all the time. So, but if you look at Midwest Connect, Midwest Connect project basically goes through four or five different states. We are working with Illinois, we are working with Indiana, we have working with state of Ohio, we are looking with West Virginia and we are working with Pennsylvania.
So again, it's a it's a big multi-state project. But the the difference this time from the previous times are that we are part of the federal program right now. I know that in the last 10, 11 years, residents have always heard about a passenger rail connecting Columbus to Chicago, but the thing that's different right now is that we're part of a federal program, and we are following the process, and the residents will be hearing from us very soon.
Juravich: Hurt our chances if we have two different projects that are involved in this federal process? I mean, is there really truly a chance that we can get two federal projects approved?
Agrawal: I think it only enhances our chances because as our previous Amtrak friend told us, we are trying to create a network of passenger rail and we are trying a network or multi-motor transportation network in Ohio. It's not only about one line, but it's basically creating a network so that people do not only have to drive to go to Cincinnati, Cleveland or Chicago.
So again, the network is the key and we are trying to create a network connecting the Ohio cities and also connecting to the cities through Midwest.
Juravich: Do you feel that, like, are we competing? Because these are both federal projects. The federal government asked us to go into step two. Are we competing with other parts of the country? Like, are people in other states talking about this everywhere?
Agrawal: Oh, definitely. So there are 69 projects throughout the country.
Juravich: Oh, yeah, Mark mentioned that. Okay, 69 projects. So this is two of 69. Exactly.
Agrawal: Exactly. So there are two of these 69. So they are 69 projects, which are basically going through the same process as us. And the thing which we want to emphasize, which I want to emphasize right now, when we talk about passenger rail, it's not only about moving people.
It's about economic development, how we can grow the Ohio economy to our to our next level, how we can grow the economies of smaller cities like Lima, Fort Wayne in Indiana. Newark Ohio. Studies after studies have shown passenger rail transit helps to grow the economies, helps nowadays employers want to locate to places where they have multimodal transportation options. So it's not only about moving the people around, it's also about economic development, it's about job creation, it is about job retention.
Juravich: We decided to do this update on rail because recently the Ohio rail summit took place. We'll be talking with one of the organizers in just a little bit of the Ohio rail summit, but it seemed from looking at pictures from the Ohio rail summit that the three C's and a D project had momentum there. That was like, I don't know. I wasn't at the summit. It was just anecdotal. Do they like the three season a D better?
Agrawal: No, definitely 3C plus D has much more momentum because this project is only through Ohio or connecting all cities of Ohio. Midwest Connect is a much bigger project, as I mentioned, connecting four or five different states. So Midwest Connect project will benefit the entire Midwestern communities and 3C Plus D project is basically connecting the cities of file.
Juravich: This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR news. We're talking about the future of passenger rail in Ohio with Parag Agarwal, Chief Mobility and Development Officer for the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, Morpsey. So tell me more about what step two is. You said that in the fall, you're gonna map out where the stations will be, which way the rail lines will go. What do you do for step two?
Agrawal: So for the step two, we are talking about something called the service delivery plan. We are talking about alignment, like which route the passenger rails will take. We are talking about the station locations. There are many communities in central Ohio, like Dublin, Delaware, Marysville, Newark, which are interested in having a passenger rail station in their communities.
So we will be working with each community to identify a proper location. We are talking about The train frequency, as the Amtrak friend just told us, that there's very limited service in Ohio for passenger rail. We are talking, we'll be talking about the frequency of the trains, and the most important part is, how much will these trains cost us? The capital cost of these passenger rail trains. The operational cost of this passenger rail train. I will also mention one more thing. So we are also talking, we talk with Amtraxs all the time, but we are talking to Brightline.
Juravich: Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. There's there's a competitor. It's not just Amtrak's world.
Agrawal: Exactly. So again, we are talking to Brightline. So as you know, Brightline is the first privately operated train network in the U.S. Connecting right now, they are connecting Miami to Orlando. We are talking about Brightline, a couple of months back, we visited Brightline West, which will basically connecting Vegas to Los Angeles.
Speaker 7: Oh, okay.
Agrawal: So again, we are trying to get the best option available to the Ohio residents and to see which fits our needs the most.
Juravich: It's hard to remember that there's other options because Amtrak kind of became like Kleenex or Xerox and it's just what you say whenever you talk about Passenger Rail. Exactly.
Agrawal: Rail. Exactly, they have the most widely used network in the US and Amtrak, we work very closely with Amtrac, we have very regular communications with them but again as I mentioned, we are looking at this passenger rail for economic development. We are trying to make business case of passenger rail to our business community.
Juravich: What about the lines? Are you looking at just, let's use an example of connecting Columbus to Pittsburgh as a part of this Midwest connect. I mean, the most direct route is straight on 70, right? Are there existing train tracks near there that that's where you would go?
Agrawal: So again, looking at all the options as part of step two. So right now, we are looking at our existing freight network to see how we can basically use our, work with our freight railroads to see we can use the existing freight networks. But again, we have recently applied for a grant called Federal State Partnership Grant through the Federal Railroad Administration.
We are also looking for additional right of ways which Brightline likes to use. When I talk about additional right-of-ways, it's exactly what you mentioned, I-70 right- of-way, I-71 right-off-way. Are there any other additional transportation right- off-ways which has enough width and a train line can use them? This is what's happening basically in Brightline West. They're using the existing right-over-way of I-15 corridor to basically have passenger rail over there. OK, so although we are basically exploring all the options in Ohio. To benefit our communities.
Juravich: Amtrak mentioned that there's two main companies who own most of the freight lines in the whole country. Like, so you're talking with both.
Agrawal: CSX. Yes.
Juravich: Okay, so is that who owns most of the line through Ohio? Both of them?
Agrawal: Majority of them. So, it's like again.
Juravich: No, both are both companies here.
Agrawal: Both companies are here. Yeah And I will also basically say when we are talking about passenger rail, we are not trying to choose passenger rail or freight railroad. We are trying to enhance both of them. We are. Trying to say if we are trying to work on these projects, working on passenger rail in the meantime, how we can also enhance our freight network.
Again, freight is basically economic development. How we can further enhance the freight railroads in Ohio and in the Midwest that will again grow our economy. So it's not about either or or. It's about a passenger rail and freight railroad network enhancing.
Juravich: So at that event that former Secretary LaHood came to for you, he said rail projects take a long time. And he mentioned a project that he approved when he was in office in 2009 that's not done yet. So do we, as a state, as region, do we have the patience for this?
Agrawal: So again, yes, the infrastructure projects take a long time because we want to make it right. These corridors basically connect multiple states, multiple cities. So they do take long time, but the good part is all the stars are aligning right now. We are working very closely with our business community. We are very closely, we are working very closely without federal delegation, with our state delegation, with Ohio Department of Transportation.
We have something called the Passenger Rail Committee in central Ohio, in which all the mayors, city managers, everyone in central, Ohio, we all meet and talk about how we can enhance passenger rail network in central. So yes, you're right, it can take a long time, but the best part is all the stars are lining right now and this is the perfect moment to advance passenger rail and freight network in central Ohio and in the other Midwest parts of the country.
Juravich: Do you feel like you have enough support from the state of Ohio? Because in the last budget, they were not super friendly to rail. They removed us from a commission that we used to be a part of. They didn't pay the $25,000 fee to be part of it. So our state lawmakers on board just maybe they don't wanna pay for it.
Agrawal: No, sure. Again, we have very good relationships with ORDC, which is the Ohio Rail Development Commission and the state. We just want to make sure that we provide all the information to our policy makers, to our state policy makers.
So that's the reason why Morpsey is working with our partners to conduct these studies so that they know exactly how much will it cost. Capital cost, operational cost, so that the policy makers can make an informed decision. The collaboration with business community is the key. We have seen throughout the country that these large infrastructure projects only happen when you have business champions.
Juravich: What kind of businesses do you need behind you? All of them.
Agrawal: No, again, large corporations, large employers like Ohio State, large corporations, large employers in in central Ohio, in Columbus, who basically say that for our growth, for our employees, we need this multimodal transportation network to happen. So again, we are working with all the major employers, a big shout out to Columbus Partnership, who is basically actively supporting us in this effort. And again, our goal is to provide all the right information to our policy makers so that they can make an informed decision.
Juravich: So in the fall, you'll make decisions about where things will go, where the tracks will be, where the stations will be. You'll make recommendations for all of that. You have to, I mean, you know, the fall is just a few months away. You have have been working on this. So where are you gonna put the train station in Columbus?
Agrawal: So right now, the preliminary studies have shown the potential location of the Columbus station will be near Convention Center. Where it used to be. Where it use to be, right? Again, in 1970s, we had our last train go by Columbus.
So the various studies have been, preliminary studies, have shown that the station near Convention center where it used to be might be a good location. We are working closely with all the partners. And again, as the studies move forward, we will try to identify a much better suitable location moving forward.
Juravich: Okay, I mean, it seems a little crowded down on the shore at North nowadays. I don't know, can we fit it? The pictures I've seen show it looks like it's going underground.
Agrawal: Exactly. So it's again, it's a multi-story, multi-terminal. It's a multi-motor transportation hub. This is what we basically call in transportation word. Multi-motored transportation have in this basically we are connecting a passenger rail to all the other local transportation options.
So once the passenger, when the passengers they basically come out of the passenger rail station, where will they go? Yeah. So that they can connect link us BRT lines from there. So it's a multi-motor transportation network, which we have been talking about. It's not only about passenger rail. It's about creating a network for our residents, which they can use. And we are just trying to provide options for cars. That's all.
Juravich: Yes. Okay. So and is under the convention center, is that the spot or do you have to come up with a plan B?
Agrawal: The preliminary studies have shown that's a good location, but as the studies move forward, we will be working very closely with the Columbus Convention Center Authority to identify the right location.
Juravich: Okay, but that's the spot right now. Right now, that's what the studies have shown. Okay, well this is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News and we have been talking about the future of passenger rail in Ohio with Parag Agrawal, a chief mobility and development officer for Morpsey, the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission. Thanks so much for your time today.
Agrawal: Thank you, Amy. Thank you for inviting me.
Juravich: And coming up, we're going to talk about the recent Ohio rail summit and what it says about interest in passenger rail in Ohio. That's when All Sides continues on 89.7 NPR News.
You're listening to All Sides, I'm your host Amy Juravich. The inaugural Ohio Rail Summit took place recently in Columbus. The event was hosted by passenger rail advocacy group, All Aboard Ohio. And the mission of the summit was to keep momentum moving when it comes to passenger rail expansion in the state.
The summit's website says Ohio and its neighbors are no longer talking about passenger rail, they are building it. Joining us now is John Esterly, executive director of All A board Ohio. Welcome back to All Sides, John.
John Esterly: Well, good morning and thanks for having us back, Amy.
Juravich: So you had this summit to say that Ohio rail is moving from concept to reality. What makes you feel like there is a change in momentum? Cause from my perspective, I'm not seeing any trains. So tell me about the momentum.
Esterly: Yeah, well, I appreciate the question. So I think, you know, the devil's in the details and the proof is in the pudding. And what we saw just a couple of weeks ago at our rail summit, we had nearly 200 people register. We had about 165 in the room. And if you compare that to our prior year annual meetings, that is a factor of three in terms of increase. So. Seeing much more people interested, particularly young people, I believe we had over 40 Ohio State students that were in attendance. So I think that just continues to show that this is something that has widespread mainstream public support.
Juravich: So the Ohio Rail Summit website also mentioned historic federal investment, but there are a lot of places in this country that are competing for that federal money. Everyone wants a piece of it. So how do we make sure Ohio gets its fair share?
Esterly: Absolutely. So as we continue to move forward through the corridor ID process, which we're about to embark on step two, which we're very, very excited about, that'll continue to allow Ohio to really present our routes as the ones that are going to rise to the top.
And I feel like from the federal level, there's a lot of a lot of interest in those routes, because they really do connect the existing Amtrak network in a very, meaningful way, and particularly here in central Ohio where You know, we're one of the largest metropolitan areas without passenger rail service. We are the largest that doesn't have any type of rail service whatsoever. So connecting that in a meaningful way with the rest of the Amtrak network is very, very attractive.
Juravich: Yes. I mean, I was well aware that Columbus is the largest city without a passenger train because, you know, we're the fastest growing city in the country and in the Midwest depending on how you measure it. But then whenever you add in, so we're, the largest City, we don't have any rail. We don't passenger rail. We don't have a subway, we don't t have a street car. So that just makes me feel like this poor city is a hundred years behind. What did we do wrong?
Esterly: So, it is a tough conversation, and particularly when we compare ourselves to our peer cities, but even here in Ohio, looking at Cleveland, which has a very robust public transit infrastructure. What I would like to flag, though, is a hundred years ago, Cleveland was one of the top ten biggest cities in the country, and a lot of that infrastructure lives in the legacy of that much higher population density and much higher, uh, population in comparison to our peers.
So to your point, yeah, we are quite a bit behind, but I know Parag had mentioned the Link Us initiative during his interview. We're very, very excited about that. That's gonna be great for the city itself. And then again, our two different passenger routes that crisscross here in Columbus, the Midwest Connect, which he spoke to, and then the 3CD route, which kind of goes the other way across the state, will give us the opportunity to really connect with the other cities in Ohio and beyond.
Juravich: When we're talking about competing for these federal dollars and trying to get our plan from step two to step three, should we focus on one instead of two plans? So the Midwest Connect is one plan. Three C's and a D is another plan. Are we asking too much by having two plans.
Esterly: So I think that's certainly something to consider, is that there's a limited amount of funds at the federal land, at the local and at the state level. So how do we divide those out? I think there are great business cases for both of these routes. The Midwest Connect involves four other states in addition to Ohio. So there's certainly other people that can be brought into the discussion.
And 3CD again is just such an impactful route. In terms of the connections it makes here in Ohio that I think that investment makes just a ton of sense at the state level. So although both of these may be competing for some of the same funds, I think there are different sources that each one can really lean into that the other might not necessarily have the same argument for.
Juravich: Yeah, one of those sources I hadn't really thought about that was mentioned by our previous guest is not just talking to Amtrak, but also talking to Brightline. So what, what does, what would that look like for you? The idea of, you know, bringing in another train company.
Esterly: Yeah, and I would say there's certainly pluses and there's certainly minuses to any decision that you would make right there. And I would flag for the listeners that that is a step two decision. That's when we decide who the operating partner would be. I think Brightline has proven with their business model in Florida and their proposal on the West Coast that passenger rail can be done in the private sector or in a public-private partnership, which is the world that they exist in. Uh...
One Definite advantage that Amtrak has over any of the other kind of public-private entities is they've got very strong working connections with the host railroads. So I think the path to service is probably a little shorter with Amtrek just because they're used to dealing with, you know, CSX, Norfolk Southern, the other large railroads The bright line after my.
Juravich: Literally built build their own railroad track that they may have
Esterly: They may have to build their own infrastructure or they may need to develop relationships with these host railroads that they don't already have
Juravich: Okay, does your group, All Aboard Ohio, have a position? I mean, do you favor three Cs and a D over Midwest Connect, or do you take a position on what you're pushing from your group's perspective? Sure.
Esterly: So we've worked very very closely with Morpsey on Midwest Connect and advocating for that. We've also worked very closely with the state of Ohio on 3CD. Our mission really is to see better passenger rail transportation in the state of Ohio and beyond in the greater Midwest. So we're really agnostic as to which of these routes make it all the way. But obviously we'd like to see as many of them as possible.
Juravich: Okay, so you're coming down to a both and an everything situation. Absolutely. This is All Sides on 89.7 NPR News, and we're talking about the recent Ohio rail summit and what it says about interest in passenger rail in Ohio with John Esterly, executive director of All Aboard Ohio.
So back to that idea of what having a summit and what is says about interests in passenger rail, there's also the biggest passenger rail conference in the nation picked Toledo as its host. So in the fall. All of the rail people from all over the country are going to come to Toledo for a conference, right?
Esterly: Yeah, they sure are. And maybe just to jab a little bit here, they're going to Toledo because there's passenger rail service there. We very easily could have attracted them here to Columbus, but you know, here we are again.
Juravich: So, but could, should we be changing this three C's and a D to three Cs and a D and a T? Like, do we need to, do need to loop around?
Esterly: So although it doesn't impact the listeners directly here in central Ohio, there is a third passenger rail route that's under consideration that would connect Cleveland, Toledo, and Detroit. Oh, what do they call that?
Speaker 7: Does it have a catchy name?
Esterly: It really doesn't have a catchy name
Speaker 7: It needs a catchy name.
Esterly: Historically, that service was referred to as the Mercury. So that might be fun to bring back or to choose a different, newer name. But there's a lot of interest, particularly in the Toledo and Detroit area, on that route, because there's lot of mobility between those two cities, primarily for workforce. We see a lot people that live in Detroit, work in Toledo, or vice versa. So a lot a lot interest there. And then, you know, to your point. Although it might not be the straightest train, you could go from Columbus to Cleveland and then from Cleveland to Toledo and then on to Detroit.
Juravich: Not the straightest of a train, but I mean, if we're doing three C's and a D, that train's going to be a curve anyway, right? I was talking with the representative from Warpsy about whether the state is really leaning in the way we need them to, state lawmakers, for this to happen. And you know, he said yes. He said that there's support, but. I mean, how much of a setback?
Last year in the budget, they did not include, lawmakers did not included $25,000 of funding for what's called the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission. I mean $25000 isn't a lot of money when you think of the whole state budget, but they decided not to include us in this commission. Do state lawmakers need to lean in more on rail here?
Esterly: Yeah, we'd certainly love to see more support from our state lawmakers. And I would say that Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission, or MIPRC, certainly would have been great to get involved with. We kind of see that as low-hanging fruit because we get a seat at the table for improvements of service of existing routes.
So instead of these new routes, can we get better service on the Lakeshore Limited or the Capitol or the Cardinal as they pass through Ohio? So that's one of the biggest reasons we pushed there. I would say though just ideologically speaking we've got a lot of support in the state house and we do have some support in state senate. I think the senate is certainly a little bit more apprehensive of moving forward with passenger rail so that's really where the work is going to be for us and for the other passenger rail advocates is really convincing our state legislature that this is important to move through.
I believe Farag had talked about the corridor ID process and how at the end of step three, we'll essentially have a great estimate of what these routes are going to cost and some good operational metrics. So hopefully we can get all the way through the steps of corridor ID and really have a good business case to present to our state legislature.
Juravich: So he said that for step two they're going to have to identify where the lines are going to be, what rail they're gonna use, where the stations will be, I'd like map that all out. So Cleveland and Cincinnati obviously already have a train station. Does Dayton, do they need to build from scratch?
Esterly: So Dayton is also going to have to build from scratch much like Columbus and much like Columbus they're really looking at the prior location of the original passenger rail union station in Dayton. A lot of the trackage is still there. There's a lot of the footprint that is unoccupied by modern buildings. So they've got an opportunity to come in and build a station.
And then, as Parag had mentioned, here in Columbus, we've got the luxury of having some vacant space under the convention center that I think, barring any major shift in the routing, would probably be the likely home for the station here in Columbia.
Juravich: Yeah, so I had asked him if he if there needs to be a plan B or if going under the convention center is the place like is that the best option is does all aboard Ohio think yes.
Esterly: I think so. It's where all of the trackage kind of converges in Columbus, so it makes all the sense in the world. When they did the renovations on the convention center back in the 90s, they left a fairly large amount of space vacant under the convention centers. So the costs are going to be dramatically lower if we would build there as well.
Also when you look at secondary costs with passenger rail stations, things like parking, things like access to public transit. Um, you know, that location just makes a ton of sense because there's existing parking for not only the convention center itself, but also the hotels in the, in the surrounding area.
Juravich: Yeah, I was just, I mean, I was kind of joking saying the short north is is a little crowded, but I guess if you go under it, then it can fit. Is that absolutely. OK, so what other infrastructure improvements do you think that Ohio needs to make this really become a reality? Like whenever we're putting pen to paper and deciding how much is this going to cost? Are the freight lines in Ohio up to date enough to handle passenger rail?
Esterly: Sure that's a great question and I'll speak specifically to the 3 CD a large portion of it is already being used for Amtrak service so it's already upgraded to the speeds we'd like to see the portions that remain many of them are pretty close and would need minor improvements there's there's a section that runs from Columbus North that will need a little bit more detailed service and upgrades but most of that expense is going to be in the the initial upgrade and then the station build out that we'll see in the cities that don't have existing stations.
Beyond just the sheer passenger rail infrastructure, one of the concerns that we've got is cities that don't have very robust public transit. How do we support people that are coming in or going out? And that's another reason why we joined in with a lot of the advocacy around LinkUs to make sure that when somebody comes to Columbus or when somebody's leaving Columbus, they've got great opportunities to get on and off the train. And then immediately. On some other form of public transit.
Juravich: Um, in the two minutes we have left, I would just think, I mean, I'm not in the minds of the federal government, but whenever they're looking at these 69 proposals and deciding which ones get federal money, Midwest connect to then involves four or five states, um, and connects us to a big city like Chicago. I mean does that seem more appealing to the federal government than one that's just in Ohio?
Esterly: Yeah, I think there's kind of two different arguments. You made the one for Midwest Connect, which is that it would connect Chicago, Pittsburgh, and all points in between, including Columbus. But having to manage five different states can be difficult, not only in terms of infrastructure, but also in terms ongoing operations. So I think they're gonna weigh that as they make the decision.
3CD, again, it's all contained in Ohio, so operations get a little easier because you're only dealing with one jurisdiction. But to your point, you're not connecting maybe as many of the different large population centers in the Midwest.
Juravich: Yeah. I mean, would the federal government say to the 3C&D plan, like Ohio, you fund it yourself?
Esterly: I don't think we'd see that. I think there's so much interest in 3CD at the federal level really to connect to east-west corridors that you see in Amtrak's existing network in a very meaningful way, and really again to connect Columbus into the rest of that network. 3CD would get you from Columbus to New York, it would get from Columbus Chicago kind of in a roundabout sort of way. So, it does have the appeal not only within the state of Ohio, but also in terms of looking at other locations you can get to.
Juravich: We've been speaking about the future of passenger rail in Ohio with John Esterly, Executive Director of All Aboard Ohio. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks again. And you've been listening to All Sides on 89.7 NPR News. I'm Amy Juravich.